Sorry seems to be the hardest word.

[Catwoman]

The closer of a piece in The Independent today detailing the catalyst for the current 'you did it first' playground riots between Japan and China.

Reasons the Chinese are peeved with the Japanese (adapted from the article):

1. Nanjing. Japanese troops poured in on 13 December 1937 after suffering heavy casualties in Shanghai. They began a six week orgy of raping, killing and looting which the United Human Rights Council later described as 'the single worst atrocity during the WW2 era'. Witnesses said soldiers practised with bayonets on tied-up prisoners, burnt others alive and set dogs on children. Pregnant women were raped and bayoneted, decapitated heads were put on spikes or waved around like trophies, hundreds of unarmed civilians were mowed down with machine guns and dumped in rivers and open graves. A Chinese-American author who researched and documented these attacks claims that more than 300,000 Chinese died and at least 20,000 women were raped. She committed suicide this year, having 'felt rage' and suffered from nightmares during her research.

2. Unit 731. At the time the most elaborate biological warfare programme ever created, that turned diseases such as typhoid, anthrax, smallpox, cholera and dysentry into mass-produced killers. Atrocities included dissection of live prisoners in an attempt to determine the effects of pathogens on the human body. Yoshio Shinozuka, just 16 at the time, was dispatched by authorities to assist with the experimentation. He recalls: "I knew the Chinese individual we dissected alive. At the vivisection I could not meet his eyes because of the hate in them. He was infected with plague germs and, as the disease took its toll, his face and body became totally black. Still alive, he was brought on a stretcher to the autopsy room, where I was ordered to wash the body... The man's organs were methodically excised one by one." No one has been held to account for this 'research', no one has gone to court. At the time, American military scientists emphasised the 'extreme value' of the intelligence gained, saying "The value to the US of Japanese biological warefare data is of such importance to national security as to far outweigh the value accruing from 'war crime' persecution."

3. Schoolbooks. Japanese children are ignorant of Asian history, thanks to a curriculum that glosses over imperial Japan's brief but brutal colonial adventure. In contrast, every 15 year old in China is taught that wartime Emperor Hirohito's brainwashed troops butchered and looted their way across the country. The difference is stark.

Now there are mass riots, and both sides think the other side should apologise first. Commentators think it could lead to greater conflict.

My hands were shaking typing some of the graphic lines above.

[Happy Monkey]

What brought this issue to the forefront right now? Was this unknown before the book, or is the book a catalyst for something that had been simmering for a while? And what is the goal of the rioters?

Of course, China hardly has much standing to complain about historical whitewashing.

[Beestie]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

What brought this issue to the forefront right now? Was this unknown before the book, or is the book a catalyst for something that had been simmering for a while? And what is the goal of the rioters?

As I understand it, the rioters are using Japan's interest in possibly gaining a seat on the UN Security Council as an opportunity to express their displeasure with Japan's unwillingness to acknowledge its past transgressions. The Japanese textbooks are the just latest insult to the Chinese.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Beestie

As I understand it, the rioters are using Japan's interest in possibly gaining a seat on the UN Security Council as an opportunity to express their displeasure with Japan's unwillingness to acknowledge its past transgressions. The Japanese textbooks are the just latest insult to the Chinese.

This is far closer to the reality of those demonstrations. You can be sure that if those demonstrators were campaigning for democracy, the police would have stopped them cold.

The Chinese do have a point about how Japanese history is taught in Japan. I was rather surprised to learn the USS Arizona is a most popular tourist attraction for Japanese. In Japan, Pearl Harbor is not taught as a surprise attack and is a rather curious popular destination for Japanese tourists. The Rape of Nanking is also not taught.

But China does have an agenda here. A realigned Security Council should include the world's #2 and #3 economies - Japan and Germany. The current six permanent Security Council members are not keen to share power. Again, China remains suspicious of Japanese motives.

Yes there are other factors in these demonstrations. And lets not forget where more than 50% of the world's known plutonium is currently housed.

However there are too many posts here that portray China as a monolithic and evil power. Same reasoning used to claim Saddam was a threat to anyone. China, like so many other nations, is a congruence of forces. Some are very sympathetic to US interests. Others more suspicious. Was it an accident that US warplanes hit the China embassy exactly in the room where all Chinese intelligence would be collected? The same people are asking why US planes accidentally hit Al Jesera offices in both Baghdad and Kabul when such attacks would be most beneficial to US propaganda. Chinese have good reason to both be suspicious of and want to be close friends of America. There is no monolithic 'good' or 'evil' power in China - as some have posted here.

And lets not forget how dependent the US is now on China. The George Jr administration is so wildly spending away the 'fiscal responsible' gains of both the George Sr and Clinton administrations. China now controls a mountain of US cash to the benefit of America. It would take very little for China to massively undermine the US economy by dumping dollars. China has that many dollars, and is one of the largest reasons why the US dollar remains so strong and stable.

Those who monolithically promote China as an enemy should first learn how much China has been doing to maintain good US relations.

[Beestie]

I'm not sure "sorry" would cut it.

I saw an interview with Iris Chang (the author of The Rape of Nanking) and she could barely make it through the interview.

I also heard an interview with a representative of the Los Angeles prison system who explained that they have a policy of never putting a Chinese and a Japanese in the same cell. "One of them would be dead in an hour."

The water that separates them is a blessing.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by Catwoman

At the time, American military scientists emphasised the 'extreme value' of the intelligence gained, saying "The value to the US of Japanese biological warefare data is of such importance to national security as to far outweigh the value accruing from 'war crime' persecution."

That is horrific. And it raises huge ethical issues. Do you use data that comes from a horribly tainted source like that?

I'm reminded of the medical experimentation the Nazis did on some of their prisoners. Some of the data from those experiments has actually been valuable. Prisoners were put in tubs of ice cold water to see how long they would last, and if they could be revived afterwards. Much of what we know about the effects of cold water exposure comes from that data. Many people died to get that data. Do you throw the data away, or use it?

The difference, of course, is the Nazis were tried for war crimes, and the Japanese haven't faced the music for what they did.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by glatt

I'm reminded of the medical experimentation the Nazis did on some of their prisoners.

Just ask Bayer aspirin people...

http://www.hannibal.net/stories/0219...ngMengele.html

[jaguar]

Know why? The guys in charge of that delightful little operation were given full immunity by the US in exchange for the data.

The reason this came to the forefront now is more short-term political opportunism on the part of the Chinese than anything else, partly the issue of Japan having a permanant seat on the security council, oil pipelines from Russia, oil exploration in a zone right on the border of their economic exclusion zones and regional powergames. Don't forget they did some not-nice things to the Koreans as well, an issue that comes up every time ownership of a group of islands between them comes up. China has actively encouraged this japan hatred of course.

[mrnoodle]

One reason this is coming up now is probably something to do with China's sabre-rattling over Taiwan. China has long felt that Taiwan was its possession, despite the fact that it was given over to Japan in perpetuity as the result of some treaty or other (too busy to google it at the moment). Taiwan wants to be independent, China is more than willing to blow it up to keep that from happening, particularly since the US is tied up in the middle east right now. Not sure if Japan has verbalized any preference in the matter, as Taiwan has been operating fairly autonomously since it changed its name from Formosa (is that right?). However, I wouldn't think that they would support any Chinese land grab.

I don't know how I feel about it. A great number of Taiwanese consider themselves to be Chinese first, Taiwanese second. From what I hear, anyway. In any case, I expect the ChiCom government is escalating the rhetoric in preparation for even more bullying of Taiwan. Because we are strong allies with Japan, they get the double benefit of pissing off old enemies and flipping off the yanks while we are otherwise engaged.

The few Chinese people I have heard from about this consider Taiwan to be Chinese, but have a deep loathing for communism. At the same time, they don't care to have the US get involved - they see it as an internal affair.

[glatt]

If/when China decides to attack Tiawan, would we really get into World War 3 over it? We let China take Hong Kong back when the lease was up. Why not Taiwan? I'm all in favor of trying to use our diplomatic resources to keep Taiwan democratic, but I don't want to get into a war with China over it. We couldn't win that war. I think China knows it.

[Undertoad]

Belmont Club explained it all five days ago: The US could cut off most of China's oil pretty quickly. Even Taiwan alone, using US-built subs, would easily be able to interrupt critical oil shipping lanes. China has a 30-day reserve of oil; the US has 158 days.

[jaguar]

China couldn't win it either. They know it too. Noone wins a war that big these days, particularly when you look at how economically inter-linked the two are. Japan is a vocal supporter of Taiwanese independence.

Glatt - because last I checked, Taiwan wasn't on lease to itself.

[glatt]

Right, it's a stalemate between the USA and China. But China can take Taiwan. If we blockade China's oil deliveries after they invade Taiwan, won't they interpret that as an act of war? The escalation could get nasty pretty quick. They have nukes.

When the USSR invaded Afghanistan, we were afraid to lock horns with them, because they had nukes. We boycotted their Olympics and gave Stingers to the rebels. China has nukes too. They have Olympics coming up. So we could always do the boycott thing.

I think the USA is bluffing that it will defend Taiwan, and I think China suspects it.

[lookout123]

i think china is torn because they see the necessity of being involved in the global economic community, but they want to remain socially closed. so they will sabre rattle to keep up appearances, but going to battle is extremely unlikely.

hong kong was a lease - a legal contract - how could we, or anyone else dispute that.

taiwan - not a lease. they are chinese who are proud of chinese but refuse to fall under the communist system.

do you really believe that Bushco couldn't fire up the American people over a good old fashioned US vs. the Commies conflict? I think the average american ( does not mean socially, fiscally, or politically astute) would welcome the idea. A real enemy? with an army? and planes? and uniforms? not vague muslim tribes? where do we sign up?

[BigV]

Originally Posted by lookout123

--gone--
do you really believe that Bushco couldn't fire up the American people over a good old fashioned US vs. the Commies conflict? I think the average american ( does not mean socially, fiscally, or politically astute) would welcome the idea. A real enemy? with an army? and planes? and uniforms? not vague muslim tribes? where do we sign up?

Just. Shut. Up.

I'm reminded of the movie _Beetlejuice_, say it three times and "POOF" it's here! Your satirical remark could easily become reality.

There needn't be any relationship between the reality of the threat and the reality of the blood and treasure spent to rise up against it. Do not suggest such a thing, please.