Atheist Plans New Lawsuit Over Phrase 'Under God'

[ladysycamore]

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.j...toryID=5521606

SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - Undeterred by the U.S. Supreme Court throwing out his legal challenge to the phrase "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance, atheist Michael Newdow said on Saturday he would file another federal lawsuit to remove the words from the pledge.

No child has to recite the pledge. It is voluntary.

Newdow, of Sacramento, told Reuters in a telephone interview he hopes to represent two families in a renewed challenge to the constitutionality of the religious reference in the Pledge of Allegiance.

Newdow said he would act as their lawyer in a lawsuit against the Elk Grove Unified School District, the same Sacramento-area district he sued in a closely watched case that the U.S. Supreme Court rejected on June 14.

The court ruled that Newdow, a physician with a law degree, lacked standing to sue the school district on behalf of his 10-year-old daughter, because her mother, Sandra Banning, had exclusive legal custody of the girl in a state court order.

Newdow claimed his daughter suffered harm from having to recite the pledge. By contrast, Banning, a born-again Christian, supported her daughter saying the pledge.

The court's 8-0 decision overturned a ruling by a U.S. appeals court in California that reciting the phrase amounted to a violation of church-state separation. However, because the high court rejected the lawsuit on a technicality, it left open the possibility of future challenges.

Newdow said arguments in the new lawsuit will echo those in his recent effort.

"It would be the exact same case," Newdow said of the lawsuit, expected to be filed in federal district court in Sacramento in August. "All the work has been done. Just plug in a different name and do it all over again."

The U.S. Supreme Court's ruling came on the 50th anniversary of the addition of the words "under God" to the pledge, which the U.S. Congress adopted to distinguish America's religious values and heritage from those of communism, which is atheistic.

Millions of U.S. students every day "pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." California requires the pledge to be recited every day at public elementary schools, although no child has to join in.

© Reuters 2004. All Rights Reserved.

[Kitsune]

No child has to recite the pledge. It is voluntary.

When did this change? It sure didn't seem voluntary when I was in elementary school and punishment did occur for those who didn't stand and recite.

High School and Middle School were different matters, but they couldn't force us to do much of anything by that age.

Just the social control aspect is strong enough. When I was in 3rd grade there was a kid in my class who was a Jenovah's witness. His folks wouldn't let him say the pledge, so he remained seated while the rest of us stood to say the pledge. We all thought he was prettty wierd and he got a lot of teasing about being a "commie," poor kid. I think it should be "One nation, despite God..." myself.

[wolf]

Voluntary means voluntary.

Narrowmindedness and stupidity on the part of your teacher who chose not to take the learning opportunity presented by having a member of a smallish religion in their class is all part of the problem here.

I went (except for one year) to public school. Part of the classwork involved lessons on understanding of different faiths ... including a very cool field trip to a Quaker Meeting House, Catholic Church, and the Frank Lloyd Wright Synagogue (Beth Shalom) in Elkins Park.

[Chewbaccus]

My experience was in the same vein as Kit and marichiko's - come middle school, I was just standing with my hands in my pockets in the morning most of the time, and by high school, I wasn't even doing that much. But I still remember the one or two kids I knew that didn't do the Pledge in grade school and got various punishments depending on the level of their disobediance. To be fair, they were almost certainly acting out of a "I hate teacher" attitude than a more nobler motive, but the fact remains.

Given what caused "under God" to be added to the Pledge in the first place, I would prefer it to be removed. I personally prefer to show respect to God in ways not born of geopolitical spite.

And wolf, does that school you attended still do this? I'm just saying, if I ever have kids and the program still exists at that time, that sounds like a really good place in which to enroll them.

[wolf]

I have a friend with kids in my old elementary school, so I can ask.

Wissahickon School District is in the Philadelphia suburbs, but things MIGHT have changed a wee bit in the last um ... 28 or so years...

[ladysycamore]

You know, I find it funny that the Pledge is even said at all. How many kids (I mean REALLY) know what the pledge is even about? Or even care? I know I didn't. I pretty much thought it was just something that you said everyday before school started:

Voice over intercom: "Please stand for the Pledge of Allegance."

*stand up, hand over heart, start reciting* Like a robot, everyday.

*shrugs* I didn't have any gigantic swells of pride for my nation or get misty-eyed with patriotism when saying the Pledge. But I DID get those feelings when singing songs in music class like, "This Land Is Your Land", "God Bless America", etc.

I'm sure that some kids "get it", but has anyone really asked them about it? (I'm guessing they'll parrot the answer that adults say, so would that be a "true" answer?).

Just some thoughts.

[Kitsune]

How many kids (I mean REALLY) know what the pledge is even about?

I know I didn't know. If I had actually sat down and thought about the words back then, I would have taken it much differently than I did and it might have even have meant something other than just a boring ritual. Even in my recent years, the damn thing is so ingrained into my head that it no longer has any meaning, like a word repeatedly endlessly.

Like a robot, everyday.

In hindsight, this is a really creepy aspect of it. Something you repeat everyday and as a huge weight to it but you don't understand the meaning of as a child... its a bit weird.

I really think it is more for the benefit of the parents than the kids.

[lookout123]

i remember as a small kid a WWII vet came into our class, i think all the 2nd graders were together. he talked about his experiences and what the flag and patriotism meant to him.
that combined with the things my grandfather taught me made me appreciate the pledge.
sometimes it is good to create a habit even before the "why" of something is clear.


my 3 year old gets mad about brushing his teeth everyday and always asks why - someday he'll understand why, but for now, just doing it is enough.

[Cyber Wolf]

As far as I know, schools (public and private) really don't go out of their way to teach the K-4 grade kids the meaning or reason behind the Pledge. As has been stated (and is largely true), kids are just supposed to stand up every morning and say it. At my lower school, there was a flag pole that everyone actually went outside to stand around to say the pledge.

The average 10 year old, on the whole, doesn't know or doesn't care what the Pledge is. There are other pressing concerns at that age (newest toy, so-and-so called me a Dork, Sleep-over this Friday!!) So what I want to know is what "harm" has this guy's 10 year old been subjected to? He's almost treating it as if they forced his kid to say Dirty Words every morning or something like that. I'm willing to put a fiver on the possibility his kid really didn't think about it much until Dad started making a big deal out of it.

Anyway, if the Pledge MUST be recited, why not leave it with Under God included and allow that one portion of the Pledge be entirely optional? That way, every child can make that choice. Also, how's Mom and Dad going to know whether or not the kid really said it? Children need some chances to make important choices in their own lives.

[Kitsune]

So what I want to know is what "harm" has this guy's 10 year old been subjected to? He's almost treating it as if they forced his kid to say Dirty Words every morning or something like that.

I'm not sure I understand the logic in that. So you'd be fine if we replaced the word "God" with "Jesus"? What about "Allah" or "Moon spirit"? As long as the kids don't understand, it wouldn't matter?

[SteveDallas]

"What harm does it do?"

I pledge allegiance, to the spreadsheets, of the United Conglomerates of America... and to the Republicans... for which they stand.... one corporation... under the CEO... indivisible... with stock options and dividends for all.

I pledge allegiance, to Hugh Hefner, of the Playboy Corporation of America.... and to the smoking jacket... and the pipe... with which he's dressed... one magazine.... under the mattress... unstapleable..... with chesty women and airbrushing for all.

Even if we stipulate that very young children do not know the meaning of the words of the pledge, they are bound to figure it out one of these days. You can take the position that it's a rote statement, a social custom if you will, and that therefore people who don't agree with some of the statements in it shouldn't get bent out of shape--"What harm does it do?" But if you take that position, then why can't everybody just put in their own words?

It's beyond me why supposedly religious people will buy into this argument about "civic religion." In my view what this means is that the religious ideas have become so trivialized that they're useless. As a Christian, I don't need the gummint to proselytize on my behalf.

[ladysycamore]

Here's an interesting site with the history of the Pledge.

The Pledge of Allegiance:
http://www.homeofheroes.com/hallofhe...fc_pledge.html

Important points:

The Pledge (which IMO we should go by):
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

June 14, 1924".

"The Pledge of Allegiance continued to be recited daily by children in schools across America, and gained heightened popularity among adults during the patriotic fervor created by World War II. It still was an "unofficial" pledge until June 22, 1942 when the United States Congress included the Pledge to the Flag in the United States Flag Code (Title 36). This was the first Official sanction given to the words that had been recited each day by children for almost fifty years. One year after receiving this official sanction, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that school children could not be forced to recite the Pledge as part of their daily routine. "

"The last change in the Pledge of Allegiance occurred on June 14 (Flag Day), 1954 when President Dwight D. Eisenhower approved adding the words "under God". As he authorized this change he said:

"In this way we are reaffirming the transcendence of religious faith in America's heritage and future; in this way we shall constantly strengthen those spiritual weapons which forever will be our country's most powerful resource in peace and war."


This was the last change made to the Pledge of Allegiance. The 23 words what had been initially penned for a Columbus Day celebration now comprised a Thirty-one profession of loyalty and devotion to not only a flag, but to a way of life....the American ideal. "

American ideal eh? hmmm....

[Happy Monkey]

I've always found it ironic that they used God to divide "one nation" from "indivisible".

[lookout123]

Originally posted by Cyber Wolf
So what I want to know is what "harm" has this guy's 10 year old been subjected to? He's almost treating it as if they forced his kid to say Dirty Words every morning or something like that. I'm willing to put a fiver on the possibility his kid really didn't think about it much until Dad started making a big deal out of it.

the lawyer/pain in the ass is an atheist. his ex-wife, mother of his child is a born again christian... the mother supports the child's participation in religious activities and it pisses the guy off. and since he is in america, he does the only logical thing - he sues the school, government... why doesn't it piss you people off that your tax money is being wasted by a jackoff who is trying to get back at his ex-wife for becoming a christian?