11/25/2003: Rivers on Mars redux

Undertoad · 11-25-2003, 01:19 PM

Was there flowing water on Mars? Scientists think yes, though not because of the "canals" that some people used to think might be evidence. (Trying to remember: was this ever taught as a working theory?)

This image serves as proof to the people who work on such things, that Mars not only had water but "meandering" water. The delta pattern seems to be the standard sort of delta that might occur after a river deposits stuff over time.

So, are we looking at a Martian Louisiana of millions of years ago? (Would there be Martian Cajuns? Would they look like James Carville?)

The full story. (And thanks to whomever sent me this one...)

(This image also fits into the "Earth as Art" category, except that it's Mars.)

tjennings · 11-25-2003, 02:40 PM

Or it could be a macro image of someone's stucco.

Bill S. · 11-25-2003, 03:26 PM

maybe its a bad case of acne on a dogs ass.

Riddil · 11-25-2003, 04:13 PM

I've never understood the real *reason* behind arguing whether or not Mars had running water. It seems immaterial.

I believe I read somewhere that even at the poles which have frozen water (and a few frozen gases, to boot), that in the "martian summer" it will actually become warm enough for some of the ice to melt. At which point it goes directly from solid ice to a gas, since the atmospheric pressure on Mars is far too low to sustain water in a liquid form when it becomes that warm.

If that statement is true, then for there to be running water at that magnitude it would mean that Mars at that time would have had to have a much higher atmospheric pressure... something difficult to do considering the gravity of the planet can't really sustain a dense stratosphere.

(Of course, my entire argument is based on the bits I remember from HS science courses and a smattering of knowledge I gleaned from my college meteorology course... when I was actually awake. Sadly enough, considering how infrequently that was and how long ago it was, it should be noted that I'm far from an expert in the field)

Sperlock · 11-25-2003, 05:42 PM

<obscure> And apparently we can also see that there are no Ballrooms on Mars. </obscure>

juju · 11-25-2003, 05:52 PM

Welcome to the Cellar, Bill!

So, are you a Biology teacher? If so, how do you like it?

xoxoxoBruce · 11-25-2003, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Riddil
I've never understood the real *reason* behind arguing whether or not Mars had running water. It seems immaterial.

I believe I read somewhere that even at the poles which have frozen water (and a few frozen gases, to boot), that in the "martian summer" it will actually become warm enough for some of the ice to melt. At which point it goes directly from solid ice to a gas, since the atmospheric pressure on Mars is far too low to sustain water in a liquid form when it becomes that warm.

If that statement is true, then for there to be running water at that magnitude it would mean that Mars at that time would have had to have a much higher atmospheric pressure... something difficult to do considering the gravity of the planet can't really sustain a dense stratosphere.

(Of course, my entire argument is based on the bits I remember from HS science courses and a smattering of knowledge I gleaned from my college meteorology course... when I was actually awake. Sadly enough, considering how infrequently that was and how long ago it was, it should be noted that I'm far from an expert in the field)

They had it all and then they invented SUVs.

Nothing But Net · 11-25-2003, 10:01 PM

I just happened to notice that if you exchange "Poland", or variations, for "Mars" in Riddil's post, it still makes perfect sense!

Quote:

Originally posted by Riddil
I've never understood the real *reason* behind arguing whether or not Poland had running water. It seems immaterial.

I believe I read somewhere that even at the poles which have frozen water (and a few frozen gases, to boot), that in the "Polish summer" it will actually become warm enough for some of the ice to melt. At which point it goes directly from solid ice to a gas, since the atmospheric pressure on Poland is far too low to sustain water in a liquid form when it becomes that warm.

If that statement is true, then for there to be running water at that magnitude it would mean that Poland at that time would have had to have a much higher atmospheric pressure... something difficult to do considering the gravity of the planet can't really sustain a dense stratosphere.

(Of course, my entire argument is based on the bits I remember from HS science courses and a smattering of knowledge I gleaned from my college meteorology course... when I was actually awake. Sadly enough, considering how infrequently that was and how long ago it was, it should be noted that I'm far from an expert in the field)

Bitman · 11-26-2003, 03:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Riddil
If that statement is true, then for there to be running water at that magnitude it would mean that Mars at that time would have had to have a much higher atmospheric pressure... something difficult to do considering the gravity of the planet can't really sustain a dense stratosphere.

Funny, PBS just had a show that discussed this. There's some concern that the Earth's magnetic field is flipping. (The field acts as a planetary shield, deflecting all the crap the sun keeps sneezing at us.) In about a thousand years, the north pole will be in the south, and south in the north. In between, we'll have lots of mini-poles wandering around, confusing whole generations of cub scouts.

While analysing the Earth's mantle, they discovered that it's fluid state is key to the magnetic field. They theorized that in the distant past, Mars may have had a thicker atmosphere, with running water and happy bunnies. But the core cooled too much, and its field faded, and the solar wind blew most of the atmostphere away.

Shields up! Anyone know if Santa is polish?

Hubris Boy · 11-26-2003, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Undertoad
Would there be Martian Cajuns? Would they look like James Carville?

You're almost there, dude. Keep following the clues.

Uryoces · 11-26-2003, 01:38 PM

We might want to terraform Mars. Basically, we release greenhouse gases into Mars' atmosphere, and increase it's ability to trap heat. The theory is that the carbon dioxide could be liberated from the poles and the soil, and that plants would be able to convert it to oxygen for our use.

Robert Zubrin is an birlliant, inspired nutbar who could be considered an authority on Mars.

Whit · 11-27-2003, 03:34 AM

      Also, if there was water on the surface there is a greater chance of water being under the surface at a point where we could pump it out. Which would make a manned Mars landing far easier.

onetrack · 12-01-2003, 08:01 AM

It can't possibly be Mars .. I can't see any Martians waving .......

Another thought ... if they landed a spacecraft there .. and it promptly sunk outa sight in a Martian version of a Louisiana swamp .. at least all the space experts could cry .. "we were right!! .. all the while, lamenting the loss of the spacecraft that could have given them more vital info .. like how deep the water was ........

xoxoxoBruce · 12-01-2003, 05:50 PM

Well, they would know it's deeper than the ship is high.

Welcome to the Cellar onetrack. We can always use another smartass.

Hubris Boy · 12-01-2003, 09:08 PM

The Martians were probably saying the same things when Carville's ship crash-landed in Lake Pontchartrain.

11-25-2003, 01:19 PM	#1
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	11/25/2003: Rivers on Mars redux Was there flowing water on Mars? Scientists think yes, though not because of the "canals" that some people used to think might be evidence. (Trying to remember: was this ever taught as a working theory?) This image serves as proof to the people who work on such things, that Mars not only had water but "meandering" water. The delta pattern seems to be the standard sort of delta that might occur after a river deposits stuff over time. So, are we looking at a Martian Louisiana of millions of years ago? (Would there be Martian Cajuns? Would they look like James Carville?) The full story. (And thanks to whomever sent me this one...) (This image also fits into the "Earth as Art" category, except that it's Mars.)

11-25-2003, 02:40 PM	#2
tjennings Belt Conveyor Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sioux City, IA Posts: 66	Or it could be a macro image of someone's stucco. __________________ No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. Niels Bohr, physicist (1885-1962)

11-25-2003, 03:26 PM	#3
Bill S. Non-Newbie Sort Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Lancaster, Ca Posts: 6	maybe its a bad case of acne on a dogs ass. __________________ divndude

11-25-2003, 05:42 PM	#5
Sperlock Elite Elitist Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 322	<obscure> And apparently we can also see that there are no Ballrooms on Mars. </obscure> __________________ Every oak tree started out as a couple of nuts who stood their ground. - Anonymous http://informationthreshold.blogspot.com, http://spiritualthreshold.blogspot.com

11-26-2003, 01:38 PM	#11
Uryoces 2nd Covenant, yo Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Pugetropolis Posts: 583	We might want to terraform Mars. Basically, we release greenhouse gases into Mars' atmosphere, and increase it's ability to trap heat. The theory is that the carbon dioxide could be liberated from the poles and the soil, and that plants would be able to convert it to oxygen for our use. Robert Zubrin is an birlliant, inspired nutbar who could be considered an authority on Mars. __________________ The party's over ... the drink ... and the luck ... ran out.

11-25-2003, 04:13 PM	#4
Riddil Management Consultant Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 165	I've never understood the real reason behind arguing whether or not Mars had running water. It seems immaterial. I believe I read somewhere that even at the poles which have frozen water (and a few frozen gases, to boot), that in the "martian summer" it will actually become warm enough for some of the ice to melt. At which point it goes directly from solid ice to a gas, since the atmospheric pressure on Mars is far too low to sustain water in a liquid form when it becomes that warm. If that statement is true, then for there to be running water at that magnitude it would mean that Mars at that time would have had to have a much higher atmospheric pressure... something difficult to do considering the gravity of the planet can't really sustain a dense stratosphere. (Of course, my entire argument is based on the bits I remember from HS science courses and a smattering of knowledge I gleaned from my college meteorology course... when I was actually awake. Sadly enough, considering how infrequently that was and how long ago it was, it should be noted that I'm far from an expert in the field)

11-25-2003, 05:52 PM	#6
juju no one of consequence Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Arkansas Posts: 2,839	Welcome to the Cellar, Bill! So, are you a Biology teacher? If so, how do you like it?

11-27-2003, 03:34 AM	#12
Whit Umm ... yeah. Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Arkansas, USA Posts: 949	Also, if there was water on the surface there is a greater chance of water being under the surface at a point where we could pump it out. Which would make a manned Mars landing far easier. __________________ A friend will help you move. A true friend will help you move a body.

12-01-2003, 08:01 AM	#13
onetrack Coronation Incarnate Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Western Australia Posts: 99	It can't possibly be Mars .. I can't see any Martians waving ....... Another thought ... if they landed a spacecraft there .. and it promptly sunk outa sight in a Martian version of a Louisiana swamp .. at least all the space experts could cry .. "we were right!! .. all the while, lamenting the loss of the spacecraft that could have given them more vital info .. like how deep the water was ........

12-01-2003, 05:50 PM	#14
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Well, they would know it's deeper than the ship is high. Welcome to the Cellar onetrack. We can always use another smartass. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

12-01-2003, 09:08 PM	#15
Hubris Boy Keymaster of Gozer Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Patapsco Drainage Basin Posts: 471	The Martians were probably saying the same things when Carville's ship crash-landed in Lake Pontchartrain.

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