College is not where you find a career. College is where you have fun and drink beer

[Undertoad]

Following up on the train of thought in Interesting Charts and Graphs, comes this new headline from CNN Money:

Community college grads out-earn bachelor's degree holders

Nearly 30% of Americans with associate's degrees now make more than those with bachelor's degrees, according to Georgetown University's Center on Education and the Workforce. In fact, other recent research in several states shows that, on average, community college graduates right out of school make more than graduates of four-year universities.

The average wage for graduates of community colleges in Tennessee, for instance, is $38,948 -- more than $1,300 higher than the average salaries for graduates of the state's four-year institutions.

With a four-year degree in Computer Science from a competitive private northeastern college and a third of the coursework towards an MBA, and 25 years experience, I am unemployable in my field unless I move across the country. Well shit happens, and a degree doesn't prepare you for that.

[Undertoad]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...-jobs/1868817/

We don't need degreed people any more. We are now short on uneducated people:

Vedder, whose study is based on 2010 Labor Department data, says the problem is the stock of college graduates in the workforce (41.7 million) in 2010 was larger than the number of jobs requiring a college degree (28.6 million).

That, he says, helps explain why 15% of taxi drivers in 2010 had bachelor's degrees vs. 1% in 1970. Among retail sales clerks, 25% had a bachelor's degree in 2010. Less than 5% did in 1970.

"There are going to be an awful lot of disappointed people because a lot of them are going to end up as janitors," Vedder says. In 2010, 5% of janitors, 115,520 workers, had bachelor's degrees, his data show.

[glatt]

Nearly 30% of Americans with associate's degrees now make more than those with bachelor's degrees

Doesn't this mean over 70% of Americans with bachelor's degrees make more than those with associate's degrees?

[Undertoad]

Yes it does, but the author, editor, and everyone making decisions about the story were college-educated...

I think they are referring to jobs created today. If you want a good paying job today, get a two-year degree.

[glatt]

There was an article a couple weeks ago in the Washington Post (actually, it was probably an opinion piece) that said that yes, college is losing its luster, but it's still the best way to get a high paying job. The piece acknowledged that a lot of college graduates are having a hard time, but that more non-college graduates are having an even harder time. Graduating with a college degree today sucks, but not having one sucks even more.

This is a topic that is very important to me and I want to be as knowledgeable as possible about it. I need to figure out how much I should try to influence my kids' decisions about what they study and if they go to college.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by glatt

This is a topic that is very important to me and I want to be as knowledgeable as possible about it. I need to figure out how much I should try to influence my kids' decisions about what they study and if they go to college.

My two cents would not to try to push your kids into a specific field (to certain extent) but to try to be top tier in whatever field they pick. I can't really back this up besides my limited personal perspective but that seems to be a better indicator of employment than fields of study. I would highly recommend this if your kids go into engineering. "Work hard, play hard" is the cool thing to do by senior year and looking back at my experience, I wish I had that mentality as a freshman.

Also, if your kids are good with their hands, going into the trades may not be a bad idea. Out of all my friends (many of them electrical/biomed/civil engineers), the guy making the most money right now just has a two year degree from a private technical college and fixes machines in the nuclear field. Keep in mind that he graduated 2nd or 3rd in his class and job placement after graduation is near 100% at that school.

[Griff]

This thread is floating around in my head today. I really liked what ph45 said.

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

My two cents would not to try to push your kids into a specific field (to certain extent) but to try to be top tier in whatever field they pick.

#1 is in college doing learning industrial design which she loves and appears to have a lot of directions she could go. I think she should be self employed and find her niche. #2 I worry about because she has a lot of me in her but fortunately smarter. She has time.

My administrator approached me today about a couple opportunities she wants me to consider. The first is starting a behavior focused classroom which county is desperate for and I basically asked for in a letter last month. The second is getting that administration certificate and starting to take the reins. Anyway I have the degrees as union cards and the certificate would be another even if they didn't play out smoothly when I first got them. I've said a lot of things in the past about "if I ran these classrooms" because I know what bad educational systems look like, anyway it may be put up or shut up time. Thing about these opportunities is with all the education, for the immediate future, I'll still be making 1/2 of what Pete does in a field far removed from her Fine Arts degree. College degrees are weird, they're both important and unimportant, its just a matter of how it plays out on the personal level. I'd prolly be better off a wood butcher.

[xoxoxoBruce]

In many (most?) corporate structures some dude in an office far away, decides which positions will require a degree in order for you to apply. But then likely as not the job doesn't relate to the degree, they often don't even specify degree in what. They don't care because they're going to train you to do the job the way they want it done. But they want to be able to brag how many degreed people they have

Boeing did a big push about 10 years ago where they pushed people out of jobs they'd been doing for 15 or 20 years, and replaced them with new college graduates. Well OK, fresh blood, new ideas, more gooder, right? No, they had the people being bumped out, train the new blood to do it exactly the same way, and warned the newbies not to deviate from what they were shown, as much of the methods/systems were specified by government contract. I heard a rumor that using degreed people allowed them to charge the government more for the same work, but couldn't substantiate that.

A friend just got forced out of one of Florida's biggest health care providers. He wrote and administered the programs that kept the pharmacies in seven hospitals supplied, and running smoothly. He even had an office with a door and window... but no degree. They decided to outsource his job to contractors, so they gave him three months to train them and buh bye.

[Clodfobble]

I think it's less about if you go, and more about what you study. The majority of those in community college are not majoring in English, or Theatre, or History, or the worst, Undeclared. They are generally a few years older on average, paying for it themselves, and are studying nursing, or teaching, or some other useful thing, because they've tried the real world and want something better.

If you go to a four year university and study engineering, you'll probably be okay. Study something without a lot of career structure underneath, like economics, for example, and you're going to be unemployable compared to the guy who became a lab tech at the local community college.

You have to go to college for a reason, not just because college is the thing you're supposed to do.

[Lamplighter]

So many people think that college/university degrees are job training.
From a "job" perspective, I think it's better to see them as "union cards".
They are the credentials that get your foot in the door; after that it's up to the individual.
Without that degree, those doors are forever locked.

UT's link above reports that those with a Bachelor degree eventually catch up and pass (> $50k/yr)
those limited to just a community college or high school graduation.
More importantly, I believe college degrees are about life experiences for the future.

Any job will get boring and generate dissatisfaction.
A salary increase has a satisfying effect for only about 6 months.
So if $ is all there is to go on the "job" becomes "work", not a "career".

John Adams' recent thread is a good example...

[glatt]

College degrees are absolutely union cards. They probably shouldn't be, but they are.

[Undertoad]

That is the commonly-held belief which ten years from now will be considered a mistake. You heard it here first. If you want to make money you will need a *real* card in HVAC or plumbing.

If you go to a four year university and study engineering, you'll probably be okay.

That was true twenty years ago but now you have to pick the right engineering degree. If you pick nuclear engineering and the nation decides to not build more nuclear plants, you are shit out of luck and will be driving a taxi or working retail. If you pick networking and the nation decides to allow 250,000 more H1B visas on top of an already-depressed tech labor marketplace, you are shit out of luck and may have to work at a pawn shop.

If we don't make things in this country we don't need engineers to design them. A card or degree won't help you if there are no jobs.

[Lamplighter]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

That is the commonly-held belief which ten years from now will be considered a mistake. You heard it here first.

Do you really think the Bush-economy and under-employment will last for the next 10 years ?
I don't.

Just from $ alone, your CNN link above says:

Although these figures vary widely by profession, associate's degree recipients, on average,
end up making about $500,000 more over their careers than people with only high school diplomas,
but $500,000 less than people with bachelor's degrees, the Georgetown center calculates.

In my view, AA-degree'd jobs will face much harder times.

IT and "social media"Technology are well on their way to replacing
the "self-educated computer geek" and the "MS-certified" technician.
Apple, Google, MS, etc are already investing in "patent wars", not new soft- or hard-ware.
FaceBook is (desperately) looking outside it's own origins for success,
and automotive engineers have already incorporated more than enough micro-chips, trying to sell cars.

Registered Nurses with only a 2-yr degree are well on their way to extinction
because Medicare/caid etc. are requiring RN's with 4-yr degrees.
If they don't they will lose their jobs or be demoted because
only the hospitals employing those with higher requirements will be reimbursed.

So don't invest in button hooks.

[Clodfobble]

That's true, in my head I was thinking mechanical or electrical engineering. Even civil engineering is having major problems right now, because no one has the money to build.

[Undertoad]

Yes, I think the real trend is the rise of the overseas middle class which is competing with the US middle class.

I also believe that the idea that a President controls the economy is superstition. The economy is larger than the government, and Presidents are just lucky or unlucky for events to transpire while they are sitting at their desk.

Yeah medicine has long been considered one thing that can't be outsourced. Except it can: and then careers are ruined. You picked the one aspect, nursing, that can never be outsourced. I guess we'll all be nurses in the long run.