There are no illegal immigrants in America

[Radar]

In another thread that was less appropriate for this discussion I said...

Originally Posted by Radar

All I'm saying is there is no such thing as an illegal immigrant in the United States of America. The Founders never granted power over immigration to the federal government. All federal immigration laws are unconstitutional. The Fed has absolutely zero Constitutional authority to create or enforce immigration laws.

By the way, this isn't an opinion, it's a fact.

So if all unconstitutional laws are automatically null and void without the requirement of judicial review (as stated by the Supreme Court in Marbury vs. Madison) it means all of the immigrants from everywhere on earth who were invited by us, are not ILLEGAL whether they are using documentation or not.

If you doubt that these immigrants weren't invited, you may want to read these words and see if they sound familiar...

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

To which I got the following response...

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person.

The migration and importation of slaves does not apply to the immigration of free people. The clause you are mentioning refers to slaves and can only refer to slaves as it is discussing an import tax or duty on goods being imported. There is only one kind of person that is also considered a commodity or good and that is a slave.

If you don't want to take my word for it, here is a link to U.S. Government website that says it refers to the slave trade...

http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pub...nstitution.htm

Specifically they state...

COMMENTARY:
This paragraph refers to the slave trade. Dealers in slaves, as well as some slaveholders, wanted to make sure that Congress could not stop anyone from bringing African slaves into the country before the year 1808. That year, Congress did ban the importation of slaves.

Article 1, Section 9, Clause 1 does not grant the federal government any authority over immigration. It prevents the federal government from ending slavery before 1808 as a compromise to get some of the southern states to join the union.

[Radar]

I want to be clear. I'm not discussing immigration laws because my contention is that they are a violation of the Constitution. I'm not discussing case law because I'm not interested in someone's opinion of what the Constitution should say or what they think was implied.

I'm talking about the black and white words in the U.S. Constitution that actually PROHIBIT the federal government from creating or enforcing immigration laws. In fact it prohibits the federal government from doing about 80% of what it currently is doing.

Where you might ask can I find this miraculous part of the Constitution that puts such strict limits on the powers of federal government?

That my friend is in the 10th amendment. It was written as a catch all by the founders to make sure the government would never step beyond the bounds of what was specifically enumerated as a power of the federal government. This amendment means the federal government can have absolutely no "implied" powers.

It RESERVES anything NOT listed in the Constitution as an enumerated power of the federal government and which has not been prohibited from being a power of the states as a right of the people and a power of the states.

Originally Posted by U.S. Constitution

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are RESERVED to the states respectively, or to the people.

I highlight the word "reserved" to focus on the fact that this means it is not within the domain of the federal government to legislate anything other than laws pertaining to the specific areas in which they are granted enumerated powers.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Radar

Originally Posted by U.S. Constitution
Amendment X

I highlight the word "reserved" to focus on the fact that this means it is not within the domain of the federal government to legislate anything other than laws pertaining to the specific areas in which they are granted enumerated powers.

I highlighted the "or to the people" because I think what that means is up for discussion.

[Radar]

Originally Posted by classicman

I highlighted the "or to the people" because I think what that means is up for discussion.

States or other governments have powers, people have rights. Government's only have powers that the people grant to it....which means government may not have any powers that we, as individuals don't possess without government, and which we have not expressly granted to government.

Anything not listed in the Constitution as an enumerated power of the federal government or prohibited from being a power of the states, is either a power of the states (assuming the people have granted one of their rights to that state as a power) or a right of the people.

[Learner]

Originally Posted by Radar

I want to be clear. I'm not discussing immigration laws because my contention is that they are a violation of the Constitution. I'm not discussing case law because I'm not interested in someone's opinion of what the Constitution should say or what they think was implied.

I'm talking about the black and white words in the U.S. Constitution that actually PROHIBIT the federal government from creating or enforcing immigration laws. In fact it prohibits the federal government from doing about 80% of what it currently is doing.

Where you might ask can I find this miraculous part of the Constitution that puts such strict limits on the powers of federal government?

That my friend is in the 10th amendment. It was written as a catch all by the founders to make sure the government would never step beyond the bounds of what was specifically enumerated as a power of the federal government. This amendment means the federal government can have absolutely no "implied" powers.

It RESERVES anything NOT listed in the Constitution as an enumerated power of the federal government and which has not been prohibited from being a power of the states as a right of the people and a power of the states.



I highlight the word "reserved" to focus on the fact that this means it is not within the domain of the federal government to legislate anything other than laws pertaining to the specific areas in which they are granted enumerated powers.

This discussion does in my view highlight well the difficulty of having a codified constitution. Here in the UK we have never had one, and despite that we do not seem to be any nearer absolutist rule than you (although both much nearer than one would like) - As Radar demonstrates it doesn't matter what fine words you agree if you are going to hunt Mexicans like rabbits and open Guantanamo, that extraordinary act of contempt for the rule of law.

It follows too that if the breaches of the Constitution are as widespread as he suggests - 80% - there is little point hanging on the the wreckage of the words so fixedly.

After Guantanamo it does seem you need a major reaffirmation of your national beliefs and values.

[busterb]

I'm not discussing case law

because I'm not interested in someone's opinion of what the Constitution should say or what they think was implied.

"Lord, Thank you for the patients I'm trying to exercise here." Unknown.
You cocksuckers from the west coast want all the votes you can get from these folks. I vote Independent. But not for folks like you! Read my lips!
"Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant' is like calling a drug dealer an 'unlicensed pharmacist." As I said before. Have you been told today? If not, FUCK YOU On second edit fuck u again. BusterB

[Radar]

Originally Posted by busterb

I'm not discussing case law
"Lord, Thank you for the patients I'm trying to exercise here." Unknown.
You cocksuckers from the west coast want all the votes you can get from these folks. I vote Independent. But not for folks like you! Read my lips!
"Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant' is like calling a drug dealer an 'unlicensed pharmacist." As I said before. Have you been told today? If not, FUCK YOU On second edit fuck u again. BusterB

Apparently there are too many unpatriotic dickheads like you who haven't actually read or understood the Constitution and think the government can create any laws it chooses.

There is no such thing as an illegal alien in America so using the term "illegal alien" to describe an undocumented immigrant is like using the word "automobile" to describe a piano.

If you don't want to live in a country that was built entirely by immigrants with an open invitation for a free flow of immigrants from around the world, then GET THE HELL OUT OF MY COUNTRY ASSHOLE!!!

This discussion was regarding the indisputable fact that our federal government has absolutely zero constitutional authority whatsoever to create or enforce immigration laws. Notice I used the word FACT and not OPINION? If you disagree, show me the part of the Constitution that specifically enumerates a power over immigration granted to the federal government. You can't because there is none.

[Aliantha]

[busterb]

Yeah Ali. Me too

[Aliantha]

it's a big box. we could share.

[busterb]

Humm. Touche?? SP

[regular.joe]

I see Radar is casting his line again. I'm just gonna stay back here and watch.

[Undertoad]

Article IV, Section 4. The United States shall guarantee to every state in this union a republican form of government, and shall protect each of them against invasion; and on application of the legislature, or of the executive (when the legislature cannot be convened) against domestic violence.

[Radar]

Invasion refers to armed forces not peaceful immigrants. Only the most insane person would confuse the two...like Lou Dobbs. The founders welcomed immigrants, but would call upon the military to defend against invading armies.

So, once again this does not grant any authority over IMMIGRATION.

Before anyone tries to misuse another part of the Constitution, I'll head you off.

The necessary & proper clause grants powers to congress only to create laws necessary and proper to carry out the specific things enumerated in the Constitution and the power to make rules regarding naturalization has nothing to do with immigration.

[Kitsune]

Originally Posted by Radar

The Founders never granted power over immigration to the federal government.

So the states can enforce immigration laws? How would that even work?