violence problem? ya think?

[Griff]

DUBAI (Reuters) - An Iraqi militant group led by al Qaeda vowed a war against the "worshippers of the cross" in response to a recent speech by Pope Benedict on Islam that sparked anger across the Muslim world.

"We shall break the cross and spill the wine. ... God will (help) Muslims to conquer Rome. ... God enable us to slit their throats, and make their money and descendants the bounty of the mujahideen," said the statement.

Um, maybe Benedict had a point.

The knee jerk reaction of Muslims to the Pope's statement (which the majority have still not read in context) only goes to prove that they do indeed use violence to further the cause of Islam (a nun in Africa has already been shot and killed by muslims). In fact you only have to check out the history of Islam over the centuries to see that they have used barbaric methods to convert and enforce their beliefs onto non-believers. We all know what horrors Christianity has perpetrated over two millennia to keep its stranglehold on the populace, ditto Islam now (and possibly the future).

Also, if Islam is so wonderful and the faith of its followers is so strong why the need for so many harsh laws to enforce it. One wonders just how many of Islam's followers would still be muslims if it wasn't for Islam's Dark Age laws.

We hear so much about Islamic tolerance and yet we're still waiting to see it put into practice. Perhaps it's only reserved for themselves.

Remember one thing, the central tenet of Islam is the conversion of ALL the people on Earth to Islam. Failure to convert means your death (that's usually after torture and/or mutilation).

Ain't religion wonderful.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

BigV: Nobody said "convert or die" was as central to Islam as the Shahada. But the fact that anybody is saying "convert or die" (and don't kid yourself, far too many are; one is too many) is a supremely serious and dangerous problem.

Emphasis mine.

Originally Posted by Tin Man

The knee jerk reaction of Muslims to the Pope's statement (which the majority have still not read in context) only goes to prove that they do indeed use violence to further the cause of Islam (a nun in Africa has already been shot and killed by muslims). In fact you only have to check out the history of Islam over the centuries to see that they have used barbaric methods to convert and enforce their beliefs onto non-believers. We all know what horrors Christianity has perpetrated over two millennia to keep its stranglehold on the populace, ditto Islam now (and possibly the future).

Also, if Islam is so wonderful and the faith of its followers is so strong why the need for so many harsh laws to enforce it. One wonders just how many of Islam's followers would still be muslims if it wasn't for Islam's Dark Age laws.

We hear so much about Islamic tolerance and yet we're still waiting to see it put into practice. Perhaps it's only reserved for themselves.

Remember one thing, the central tenet of Islam is the conversion of ALL the people on Earth to Islam. Failure to convert means your death (that's usually after torture and/or mutilation).

Ain't religion wonderful.

I don't make this shit up, I only call people on it.

Is it a serious problem? Is one too many? Yes and yes. Is it dangerous inflammatory violence inciting speech **regardless** of whose mouth it spews from? Yes.

You're right again, as you often are, when you say this:

Originally Posted by MaggieL

It's true that all the Muslim people I know personally are indeed peaceful. But one way even peaceful Muslims contribute to this problem is when they are reluctant to criticise or distance themselves from their more violent and autocratic coreligionists; this silence is widely taken as tacit endorsement, and leads to bogus accusations of religious prejudice against those who oppose them.

Well said. But I would extend your remarks this way. You could easily omit Muslim, or even substitute the name of any other religious tradition in its place and leave your remark unchanged, or even strengthened. And the part about inferring tacit endorsement, well that applies to everyone. Especially someone who knows Muslims personally, all of whom are peaceful, and who fails to refute such "serious and dangerous" and libelous remarks.

No "tacit endorsement" of such hate may be inferred from my actions, and I urge all those reasonable *silent* people who know otherwise to stand up and call bullshit when they see it too. Letting any of these remarks slide is forgoing and opportunity to spread peace by fighting hate.

"Tin Man" is the handle of the idiot, not the type of argument. See post #2

[xoxoxoBruce]

Convert or die(or something close to it) is a message we've seen, almost weekly, for the last few years. I'm sure a lot of westerners believe it's the basic tenet, indeed the theme, of the Muslims. We're hearing it in the Media because the Radical fringe are the only ones making news. The rest of the Muslims not speaking up, is part of the problem, whether it be from agreement with or fear of, they help the Radical fringe with their silence.

Going off in a violent binge or even just a demonstration threating everyone, because the Pope quoted an anti-Islamic ruler from history, is not acceptable behavior in a civilized society. Even if he had said outright, Islamics are violent people, which I remind you he did not, the reaction by the radical rabble is unacceptable. It makes as much sense as UG killing someone for insulting Bush.

The Pope or anyone else, should NOT have to pussyfoot around these assholes for fear of them blowing something or someone up. In free societies of the west, where people are allowed to demonstrate, making inflammatory, threatening, statements, in speechs, chants and signs, are not allowed from any other group. Why should it be tolerated from this scum?

The only thing that's accomplished, is it convinces Muslims that feel they don't get enough respect, that this is the way to go. Yeah, make them fear for their lives, then they'll respect me. Blurring the line between fear and respect is a big mistake that leads to bad behavior.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by BigV

And the part about inferring tacit endorsement, well that applies to everyone. Especially someone who knows Muslims personally, all of whom are peaceful, and who fails to refute such "serious and dangerous" and libelous remarks.

Muslims have a distinct and particular responsbility to disclaim the acts of other Muslims who commit violence in the name of Islam, especially if they complain of being discriminated against because those actions.

Were I to make claims about the "true nature of Islam", surely someone would be upbraiding me for my presumption since I do not follow Islam.

Originally Posted by BigV

"Tin Man" is the handle of the idiot, not the type of argument. See post #2

Sorry...since you were quoting UT I thought you were addressing him.

[Elspode]

Originally Posted by Tin Man

Remember one thing, the central tenet of Islam is the conversion of ALL the people on Earth to Islam. Failure to convert means your death (that's usually after torture and/or mutilation).

Yet another reason why I find it hard to believe that Muslims and Christians keep killing one another. After all, they have an enormously similar heritage.

[Undertoad]

Daily Mail: The Pope must die, says Muslim

[BigV]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Daily Mail: The Pope must die, says Muslim

Just to clarify,

A notorious Muslim extremist told a demonstration in London yesterday that the Pope should face execution.

Yeah, I'm talking to you, Tin Man. Mr. "Remember one thing, the central tenet of Islam is the conversion of ALL the people on Earth to Islam." What are your credentials for speaking with such authority on this subject? Besides being a(nother) hate spewing dittohead?

For the record, according to several sources, including my own conversations with the Muslims I know personally, the central tenet of Islam is that there is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet. **NOT** "convert or die".

When your remarks are on par with those of the subject of the article above you both deserve the same response. Shut the f*ck up.

[jinx]

From Wiki

Pakistan's Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Tasnim Aslam said, "Anyone who describes Islam as a religion as intolerant encourages violence."

A Supreme Islamic Courts Council of Somalia cleric has called for the Pope's assassination, urging Muslims to "hunt down the Pope for his barbaric statements."[44], another demanded that "whosoever offends our Prophet Mohammed should be killed on the spot by the nearest Muslim"

[BigV]

Originally Posted by jinx

--snip--
A Supreme Islamic Courts Council of Somalia cleric has called for the Pope's assassination, urging Muslims to "hunt down the Pope for his barbaric statements.

Just to clarify:

The Supreme Islamic Courts Council (or Conservative Council of Islamic Courts), as the Islamist militia called itself by July 2006, was called the Islamic Courts Union before 24 June 2006 (ICU, Somali: Midowga Maxkamadaha Islaamiga, Arabic: اتحاد المحاكم الإسلامية Ittihād al-mahākim al-islāmiyya) (which is also known as the Joint Islamic Courts), is a group of Islamic leaders banded together in a self-appointed court system with Sheikh Sharif Sheikh Ahmed as overall leader.

Do not be mislead by their (current) official sounding title. Just because they banded together and called themselves the "law" doesn't make it so. In our own country, in my own state even, there's a group of community leaders who have banded together raise "a call to voices seeking a peaceful and respectable resolve to the chaotic neglect by members of our local, state and federal governments charged with applying U.S. immigration law." They've declared their desire to enforce the laws that they feel are being ignored. Do they speak for all Americans? No. We would do well to apply the same sanity check to all such ad hoc groups, regardless of their press releases to the contrary.

Originally Posted by jinx

"[44], another demanded that "whosoever offends our Prophet Mohammed should be killed on the spot by the nearest Muslim"

Murder, not divine intervention. Not scoring points with the Big Guy. This is not hard to grasp, people.

[jinx]

Originally Posted by BigV

Just to clarify:
Do not be mislead by their (current) official sounding title. Just because they banded together and called themselves the "law" doesn't make it so. In our own country, in my own state even, there's a group of community leaders who have banded together raise "a call to voices seeking a peaceful and respectable resolve to the chaotic neglect by members of our local, state and federal governments charged with applying U.S. immigration law." They've declared their desire to enforce the laws that they feel are being ignored. Do they speak for all Americans? No. We would do well to apply the same sanity check to all such ad hoc groups, regardless of their press releases to the contrary.

If the Wikipedia article is acurate, I have to disagree with your comparison of these 2 groups as far as their influence and who they might speak for.

After the collapse of the Somali government in 1991, a system of sharia-based Islamic courts became the main judicial system, funded by fees paid by litigants. Over time the courts began to offer other services such as education and health care. The courts also acted as local police forces, being paid by local businesses to reduce crime. The ICU took on responsibility for halting robberies and drug-dealing, as well as stopping the showing of what it claims to be pornographic films in local movie houses. Somalia is almost entirely Muslim, and these institutions had wide public support. Supporters of the Islamic courts and other institutions united to form the ICU, an armed militia. In 1999 the group began to assert its authority. In April of that year they took control of the main market in Mogadishu and, in July, captured the road from Mogadishu to Afgoi.[1]
However, as the courts began to assert themselves as the dispensers of justice they came into conflict with the secular warlords who controlled most of the city. In reaction to the growing power of the ICU, a group of Mogadishu warlords formed the Alliance for the Restoration of Peace and Counter-Terrorism (ARPCT). This was a major change, as these warlords had been fighting each other for many years. By the beginning of 2006, these two groups had repeatedly clashed, and in May 2006 it escalated into street fighting in the capital, claiming the lives of more than 300 people. On 5 June 2006, the ICU claimed that they were now in control of Mogadishu.[2]
While, in the United States, the Bush administration neither confirmed nor denied support, American officials have anonymously confirmed that the U.S. government was funding the ARPCT, due to concerns that the ICU is linked to al-Qaeda and is sheltering three al-Qaeda leaders involved in past terror attacks, including the 1998 U.S. Embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania. [3] There are fears in the U.S. that the ICU's victory may complicate the "War on Terrorism"...

From UT's link:

Larger Islamic groups in Britain said they accepted the Pope's apology. Inayat Bunglawala of the Muslim Council of Britain said: "The Vatican has moved quickly to deal with the hurt and we accept that.

"It was something that should never have happened - words of that nature were always likely to cause dismay - and we believe some of the Pope's advisers may have been at fault over his speech."

Yesterday's sermon by the Pope was the first time a pontiff has publicly said sorry.

Frankly, extremists on both sides say inflammatory things (I'm not counting the Pope as an extremist -just foolish). Christianity and the Muslim faith BOTH have a very bloody history that adherents of BOTH religions should feel ashamed of. Alas, we never seem to learn. Sometimes I get very fed up with the human race - self included.

We should all just go solar and leave Jesus and Mohamed out of our little human power plays.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by marichiko

...Frankly, extremists on both sides say inflammatory things (I'm not counting the Pope as an extremist...

I am...

[Griff]

From what I've read Benedict's prose is usually pretty dense and this was no exception. He could get away with writing like that when his audience was limited but he needs to keep things much clearer now that he is a major player. He needs to start letting folks look at his speeches before delivery. He's very conservative but I wouldn't call him an extremist. We are presently fighting for the hearts of moderate Muslims and we need to be very clear that condemning extremists does not mean condemning Islam. Islam does have a violence problem and our missteps are not helping.

[Aliantha]

There have been many Muslim leaders in the media here denouncing this over-reaction by their fellows.

As with every other instance similar to this one, I would suggest it is pertinent not to judge a whole religion by the actions of a few.

surely every one of us knows someone who follows Islamic law? Surely most people realize that the majority of Muslim people are are peaceful and thoughtful. In fact, I would comment further by saying that I have not met one single Muslim person, man or woman, who has made me feel in any way frightened or threatened.

Surely these are the things we should all remember when we try to practice tolerance of other people's actions.

The Pope should be a bit more sensitive next time he decides to run his mouth off although it's true that the particular passage which has caused this reaction has been quoted out of context.

Diplomacy! Even Popes need it!