Don't like it? Get out!

[Kitsune]

Aussie Gov't Ministers have stated their position on Muslim extremism. This is pretty amazing stuff:

Treasurer Peter Costello, seen as heir apparent to Howard, hinted that some radical clerics could be asked to leave the country if they did not accept that australia was a secular state and its laws were made by parliament. "If those are not your values, if you want a country which has Sharia law or a theocratic state, then Australia is not for you," he said on national television. "I'd be saying to clerics who are teaching that there are two laws governing people in Australia, one the Australian law and another the Islamic law, that is false.

If you can't agree with parliamentary law, independent courts, democracy, and would prefer Sharia law and have the opportunity to go to other country which practices it, perhaps, then, that's a better option," Costello said.

A lot of people are cheering this as the "line to be crossed" and note they think the US should make the same statement. I think that's great! So when I made minor changes to the article to reflect the changes they suggested, their opinion changed, suddenly.

"If those are not your values, if you want a country which based on religious law or a theocratic state, then The United States is not for you."

Huh. I wonder why they didn't like that?

[Elspode]

Under current trends, the statement here would probably come out something along the lines of, "If you don't like a government founded and run on Christian principles, then perhaps the United States is not for you."

Sheesh.

Originally Posted by Elspode

Under current trends, the statement here would probably come out something along the lines of, "If you don't like a government founded and run on Christian principles, then perhaps the United States is not for you."

Sheesh.

Sad but true, Patrick! And 3 cheers for Australia! Pakistan and Northern Indian have had endless problems because there are two sets of laws - secular versus religious. In the more rural, Muslim areas of these two nations, the Muslim clerics seem to win out.

Freedom of religion does NOT mean the freedom to impose your religious views on others. I don't care if every single person in the US except for one was an Evangelical Christian. The 800 million or so would have no right to impose their system of belief on the one who chose to believe differently.

[Ridgeplate]

The core problem is that religious law can easily be at odds with secular law. Additionally, secular law tends to be far more egalitarian where enforcement is concerned. Last time I read the U.S. Constitution, it did not really mention christian values or even the christian god. So many people base the fact that the original writers of the constitution were christian, but really, that was just coincidence. If Hindus had gotten here first...well, you get the point. Besides, we'd offed all the local american indians, so they didn't really get a chance to help. In any event, good for the Aussies. Now if only those barbarians down in New Zed would get the point...

[Elspode]

Look, man...if you're going to be rational, there's no place for you in the New Christian Right. Now, get in lockstep and start spouting the party line about our Christian Founding Fathers, and be quick about it!

[skysidhe]

Originally Posted by Elspode

Look, man...if you're going to be rational, there's no place for you in the New Christian Right. Now, get in lockstep and start spouting the party line about our Christian Founding Fathers, and be quick about it!

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by Ridgeplate

Last time I read the U.S. Constitution, it did not really mention christian values or even the christian god. So many people base the fact that the original writers of the constitution were christian, but really, that was just coincidence.

(all emphasis mine)

Samuel Adams:
signed the Declaration and said:

"We have this day restored the Sovereign to whom all men ought to be obedient. He reigns in heaven and from the rising to the setting of the sun, let His kingdom come."

George "the father of our country" Washington's Farewell Address excerpts:

Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness -- these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked, Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure,reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.

...

Observe good faith and justice toward all nations. Cultivate peace and harmony with all. Religion and morality enjoin this conduct. And can it be that good policy does not equally enjoin it? It will be worthy of a free, enlightened, and at no distant period a great nation to give to mankind the magnanimous and too novel example of a people always guided by an exalted justice and benevolence. Who can doubt that in the course of time and things the fruits of such a plan would richly repay any temporary advantages which might be lost by a steady adherence to it? Can it be that Providence has not connected the permanent felicity of a nation with its virtue? The experiment, at least, is recommended by every sentiment which ennobles human nature. Alas! is it rendered impossible by its vices?

...

Though in reviewing the incidents of my Administration I am unconscious of intentional error, I am nevertheless too sensible of my defects not to think it probable that I may have committed many errors. Whatever they may be, I fervently beseech the Almighty to avert or mitigate the evils to which they may tend. I shall also carry with me the hope that my country will never cease to view them with indulgence, and that, after forty-five years of my life dedicated to its service with an upright zeal, the faults of incompetent abilities will be consigned to oblivion, as myself must soon be to the mansions of rest.

How about Benjamin Franklin?

speaking to the Constitutional Convention, on June 28, 1787:

"All of us who were engaged in the struggle (war of independence) must have observed frequent instances of a superintending Providence** in our favor.

To that kind Providence we owe this happy opportunity of consulting in peace on the means of establishing our future national felicity. And have we now forgotten that powerful Friend? Or do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?

I have lived, sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth--that God Governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?

We have been assured, sir, in the Sacred Writings, that "except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without His concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel.…

I therefore beg leave to move--that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessing on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business…

Another delegate to the convention wrote these observations about Franklin's speech and its effect on the convention:

"The Doctor sat down; and never did I behold a countenance at once so dignified and delighted as was that of Washington at the close of the address; nor were the members of the convention generally less affected. The words of the venerable Franklin fell upon our ears with a weight and authority even greater than we may suppose an oracle to have had in a Roman Senate."
(Jonathan Dayton, delegate from New Jersey)

Franklin's resolution was passed and implemented enthusiastically. From that moment on, the deadlock was broken and rapid progress was made on the constitution.

From that day on, Chaplins were established in both the House and Senate. Prayers have opened both houses of Congress ever since.

** In the usage of the time, "Providence" referred specifically to God's fortuitous intervention in events. It was considered so much a characteristic of God's dealings with men that the word was always capitalized in print to emphasize that it was referring to specific acts of God.

How about John Quincy Adams?

On July 4, 1837, in a speech celebrating the 61st Anniversary of the signing of the Declaration, John Quincy Adams proclaimed to the inhabitants of the Town of Newburyport:

“Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the World, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day. Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the Progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer’s mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity and gave to the world the first irrevocable pledge of the fulfillment of the prophecies announced directly from Heaven at the birth of the Saviour and predicted by the greatest of the Hebrew prophets 600 years before.”

After the "Articles of Confederation" didn't work, the Constitutional Confederation was convened. One law of interest passed into law under the new Constitution 1789 is the Northwest Ordinance (passed during the period that the first amendment was being deliberated). The NWO is the law that lays down the rules that you had to follow to become a state. This portion of the Ordinance requires the state constitutions to include statements to this effect:

ART. 3. Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged. ....

[OnyxCougar]

AND

THE SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES
HOLY TRINITY CHURCH v. THE UNITED STATES
143 U.S. 457, 12 S.Ct. 511, 36 L.Ed. 226
February 29, 1892

But, beyond all these matters, no purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation, state or national, because this is a religious people.
...
The first charter of Virginia, granted by King James I. in 1606, after reciting the application of certain parties for a charter, commenced the grant in these words: C. First Charter of Virginia
"We, greatly commending, and graciously accepting of, their Desires for the Furtherance of so noble a Work, which may, by the Providence of Almighty God, hereafter tend to the Glory of his Divine Majesty, in propagating of Christian Religion to such People, as yet live in Darkness and miserable Ignorance of the true Knowledge and Worship of God, and may in time bring the Infidels and Savages, living in those parts, to human Civility, and to a settled and quiet Government; DO, by these our Letters-Patents, graciously accept of, and agree to, their humble and well-intended Desires."
...
The celebrated compact made by the pilgrims in the Mayflower, 1620, recites:
"Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of the Christian Faith, and the Honour of our King and Country, a Voyage to plant the first Colony in the northern Parts of Virginia; Do by these Presents, solemnly and mutually, in the Presence of God and one another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil Body Politick, for our better Ordering and Preservation, and Furtherance of the Ends aforesaid."
...
The fundamental orders of Connecticut, under which a provisional government was instituted in 1638-39, commence with this declaration: "Forasmuch as it hath pleased the Allmighty God by the wise disposition of his diuyne pruidence [143 U.S. 457, 467] so to Order and dispose of things that we the Inhabitants and Residents of Windsor, Hartford, and Wethersfield are now cohabiting and dwelling in and vppon the River of Conectecotte and the Lands thereunto adioyneing; And well knowing where a people are gathered togather the word of God requires that to mayntayne the peace and vnion of such a people there should be an orderly and decent Gouerment established according to God, to order and dispose of the affayres of the people at all seasons as occation shall require; doe therefore assotiate and conioyne our selues to be as one Publike State or Comonwelth; and doe, for our selues and our Successors and such as shall be adioyned to vs att any tyme hereafter, enter into Combination and Confederation togather, to mayntayne and presearue the liberty and purity of the gospell of our Lord Jesus wch we now prfesse, as also the disciplyne of the Churches, wch according to the truth of the said gospell is now practised amongst vs."
...
In the charter of privileges granted by William Penn to the province of Pennsylvania, in 1701, it is recited:
"Because no People can be truly happy, though under the greatest Enjoyment of Civil Liberties, if abridged of the Freedom of their Consciences, as to their Religious Profession and Worship; And Almighty God being the only Lord of Conscience, Father of Lights and Spirits; and the Author as well as Object of all divine Knowledge, Faith, and Worship, who only doth enlighten the Minds, and persuade and convince the Understandings of People, I do hereby grant and declare," etc.
...
the declaration of independence recognizes the presence of the Divine in human affairs in these words:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness."
"We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare," etc.;
"And for the [143 U.S. 457, 468] support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the Protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor."
...
If we examine the constitutions of the various states, we find in them a constant recognition of religious obligations. Every constitution of every one of the 44 states contains language which, either directly or by clear implication, recognizes a profound reverence for religion, and an assumption that its influence in all human affairs is essential to the well-being of the community
...
This recognition may be in the preamble, such as is found in the constitution of Illinois, 1870:
"We, the people of the state of Illinois, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political, and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing upon our endeavors to secure and transmit the same unimpaired to succeeding generations," etc.
...
in Updegraph v. Com., 11 Serg. & R. 394, 400, it was decided that,
"Christianity, general Christianity, is, and always has been, a part of the common law of Pennsylvania; * * * not Christianity with an established church and tithes and spiritual courts, but Christianity with liberty of conscience to all men."
...
And in People v. Ruggles, 8 Johns. 290, 294, 295, Chancellor KENT, the great commentator on American law, speaking as chief justice of the supreme court of New York, said:
"The people of this state, in common with the people of this country, profess the general doctrines of Christianity as the rule of their faith and practice; and to scandalize the author of these doctrines is not only, in a religious point of view, extremely impious, but, even in respect to the obligations due to society, is a gross violation of decency and good order. * * * The free, equal, and undisturbed enjoyment of religious opinion, whatever it may be, and free and decent discussions on any religious [143 U.S. 457, 471] subject, is granted and secured; but to revile, with malicious and blasphemous contempt, the religion professed by almost the whole community is an abuse of that right. Nor are we bound by any expressions in the constitution, as some have strangely supposed, either not to punish at all, or to punish indiscriminately the like attacks upon the religion of Mahomet or of the Grand Lama; and for this plain reason, that the case assumes that we are a Christian people, and the morality of the country is deeply ingrafted upon Christianity, and not upon the doctrines or worship of those impostors."
...

[Happy Monkey]

Or, in an attempt to seem inclusive, "Judeeeeeeoooooo-Christian Values," as Bill O'Reilly says.

[Trilby]

Oh. When I saw this thread I thought it was meant for the AG people. Pity.

[Bullitt]

Who the heck are these "AG" people I keep reading about..

Guess I don't frequent this place as much as I ought to.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by Bullitt

Who the heck are these "AG" people I keep reading about..

Guess I don't frequent this place as much as I ought to.

In the last week, we've had an influx of several people from AudioGalaxy, a site that shut down. They are looking for a new home and came here. There's been a period of "adjustment" since then.

[Bullitt]

Oh boy that sounds like loads of fun [/sarcasm]

[Pie]

Originally Posted by Kitsune

"If those are not your values, if you want a country which based on religious law or a theocratic state, then The United States is not for you."
Huh. I wonder why they didn't like that?

This is why I voted for Kitsune as a Dwellar that I'd like to meet...

[Kitsune]

Originally Posted by Pie

This is why I voted for Kitsune as a Dwellar that I'd like to meet...

You're insane for that vote, but I will buy you a beer for that.