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03-22-2005, 10:52 AM | #1 |
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School shooting du jour
The story
How long do you figure it will be until the cries for tougher gun control laws will be using this story? 20 hours and counting at this point. I've never understood the whole school shooting thing. ok, you don't like yourself, your family sucks, and you get picked on at school. welcome to your teens. how do you go from that to dropping your schoolmates? and how do the guardians and others not see this coming?
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03-22-2005, 10:59 AM | #2 |
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Check out the other thread where people are bitching that his grandmother read his journal and turned him in to the cops, and he got arrested.
When that doesn't happen, school shootings do. Since when is it a bad thing to PARENT your child?
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03-22-2005, 11:37 AM | #3 | |
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It is not possible that someone intelligent enough to drive a computer can be dumb enough to believe that "when kids don't get arrested for writing in their journals, then school shootings happen". There is absolutely no overlap. You are clearly talking out your ass just to troll for attention, or some other ulterior motive. What you said is so utterly beyond the pale that I have to attribute it to some bizzare sad message-board-tourette's-variant. Nasty to witness, but completely devoid of content.
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03-22-2005, 12:50 PM | #4 | |
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OC's point is that when obvious signs are ignored or overlooked then a preventable incident can occur. I guess you are saying that if little johhny's parents find a graphic description in his room of little Johnny levelling a shotgun and blowing off his classmate's heads with rivers of blood running down the hall, they should just have a chuckle and say: "that's my boy!" Gotcha.
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03-22-2005, 03:26 PM | #5 | ||||
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The two different stories share some details, are both sad but for very different reasons. The previous story was about an 18 year old high school student who wrote in his journal and was arrested on TERRORISM CHARGES as a result. This is sad because writing in your journal is not illegal. I mean, damn. How much of the incindiary dialogue on this forum should qualify as reasonable cause to have the police come knocking at your door and arrest the author? Thinking, writing talking is waaaay different than acting. Big, big difference. This story is sad for other reasons that are obvious. But the two of them together demonstrate the saddest fact of all, that despite our best intentions, a determined kid can carry out this kind of horrible rampage. Did the earlier case prevent a tragedy? Impossible to say. Did the other case itself represent a tragedy. Most certainly. These sad, terrible events can NOT be prevented. Reduced, minimized, isolated, ok, I'll buy that. But if the price is to arrest every student or child author who puts pen to paper, and says something threatening, I vote no. If the price is to squash expressions of independent thought, what would be taught in schools? Why is dissent so dangerous? I am no anarchist, but I say too much conformity is even more dangerous, more insidious. Witness the slowly boiled frog. Quote:
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What OC said in this post, however, was way past that. Go read it. I paraphrase: Parents read journals and cops arrest kids or people die in schools. Whoa... not just disturbing, but so freakin wrong, factually wrong that I called bullshit. It seemed like a knee jerk reaction--"That shooter, damn shame his parents didn't have him arrested and save us all this tragedy." Sure. Arrest them all, and then the schools will be free of death. It will have moved to the prisons. Quote:
More non-seriousness, non-funnyness, non-helpfulness. I strain to imagine any parent behaving that way. Maybe on tv... Do you seriously contend that this example reflects any kind of reality, or desired reality? Get back to me on that, willya?
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03-22-2005, 05:14 PM | #6 | ||
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Your personal attack and charges of trolling for attention are ridiculous and way out of line. If there's one thing OC get's around here is plenty of attention.
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03-22-2005, 06:07 PM | #7 | |||||
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I call bullshit on your call of bullshit. If parents aren't monitoring their children's behavior, and they are exhibiting signs (depressed, antisocial behavior over and beyond what a normal teenager exhibits, writing violent and other harmful thoughts in a journal or on the internet) of impending violence, and the parents aren't doing their job parenting, then this shit happens. Period. This child was 16 (or 17, I've seen both), a nazi, posting about doing violence to former schoolmates, and already in homeschooling. The child was kicked out of school (of course, the school can't discuss why, but the article I saw the principle didn't even know why). If the child was already kicked out of school once, that's a sign your child has problems. Should you EXPECT your child to go kill 12 people? No. But if you're seeing red flags, and you do not parent your child, this type of thing happens. I have a 17 year old male child, who exhibits loner, anti-social behavior and does not play well with others at school. His grades are average. I know where he is at all times. Period. He has a cell phone and keeps it with him. He's never been at trouble in school, other than his grades. His biological father is a murderer, and I am aware that this sort of behavior may be partly genetic in nature. If I *wasn't* paying attention to his behavior, his mood, his whereabouts, where his friend lives, looking at the history on his IE, checking his pictures on the computer, monitoring his notebooks for dark or disturbing art, checking his backpack, things like that, then I would not be doing my job as a parent. Parents who "gee, I didn't see this coming" weren't paying attention. Quote:
How they handle it depends on the parent, obviously, but dismissing it, attributing violent "stories" and "thoughts" clearly written down in such a way that the police feel the child is a danger to themselves or others simply to "independant thought", is potentially lethal. Quote:
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Better a prison than my kids' school. Quote:
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Impotentes defendere libertatem non possunt. "Repetition does not transform a lie into a truth." ~Franklin D. Roosevelt Last edited by OnyxCougar; 03-22-2005 at 06:28 PM. |
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03-22-2005, 08:03 PM | #8 | ||||||||
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First Beestie, then xoB, now OC
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For sure, this kid was awash in a sea of red flags. Dad dead, mom in nursing home, Goth shaped target of peer ridicule, already kicked out of school at least once, to borrow a phrase, it must have sucked to be him. Quote:
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I have read some early evidence that there were steps taken, but clearly not the right ones. Sad. Quote:
On the other hand, when do you drop the dime on your kid? Not in retrospect, no fair. Each day is a damn mystery. I swear, parenting is the last great refuge of amateurs. Seriously, who knows if this time is the last time. I for one am glad for the mercy I received as a youngster, and that I wasn't treated so strictly that I got arrested for doing the bad things I did. Certainly no murderer, but, criminy, prison is not victory, it's a draw at best, and a delay of defeat most of the time. This cannot be prevented. And the cost of the futile exercise of attempting to do so is far far greater than even the cost of what has happened today.
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03-24-2005, 11:04 PM | #9 | |
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And still so many dead. The kid entered the building at 2:55, the police arrived at 2:57, and at 3:05, it was all over. How can this be prevented? Who would want their children to pay the costs for certainty of preventing bad things from happening to them. Easy but expensive. Just dip them all in carbonite.
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03-22-2005, 11:29 AM | #10 |
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Teenagers don't think with the right part of their brains. The hippocampus part of the brain isn't fully developed until the age of 25. It has a lot to do with social and emotional behavior, and I think it effects your understanding of the consequences of your actions.
This is not to say that someone shouldn't have seen this coming - but then, reasonable thoughts on a troubled teenager would be to expect either drugs or hanging with the wrong crowd or *some* violence or general illegal behavior . . . I don't think anyone would expect a kid to take up a gun and go shoot people. <small> I just got around to reading my March issue of National Geographic and they had a big article on the brain and how it works. . . forgive me if I'm putting my facts together wrong - but it makes sense to me </small> |
03-22-2005, 11:36 AM | #11 |
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Ok--my sweet, adorable son was suspended with possibility for expulsion when he was in the SECOND grade for bringing his grandfather's swiss army knife to school (his father and I had no idea that he had put this treasure in his backpack; and he brought it solely to show off, not harm anyone).
We pleaded his case and he was given a 10 day Out of School suspension. Now. We've all these damn rules and regulations but it seems that if a kid is determined to shoot up his classmates he will find a way.
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03-22-2005, 11:39 AM | #12 | |
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In junior high school, there were two boys in a particular class who took it upon themselves to write grafitti about me all over the inside of a supplies cabinet. Quite graphic things, actually, very creative. At the time it didn't really bother me because I had it on good authority from a friend of theirs that they had a crush on me and were just flirting in their sad, adolescent way. But the point of the story is, the teacher didn't know this. All she knew was that extremely personal, hurtful, and threatening grafitti full of my name had suddenly appeared all over her cabinet. She didn't know who did it--so I was punished, because clearly I must have done something to provoke this and 'maybe it would encourage me to reach out and establish a truce with these people.' There is still not a widespread recognition among school administrators that bullying is the cause of this kind of thing and if they would just stop the bullies they wouldn't have to worry about whether the kids are just having fantasies about killing other students or really contemplating doing it. |
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03-22-2005, 11:41 AM | #13 | |
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In Barrie's play and novel, the roles of fairies are brief: they are allies to the Lost Boys, the source of fairy dust and ...They are portrayed as dangerous, whimsical and extremely clever but quite hedonistic. "Shall I give you a kiss?" Peter asked and, jerking an acorn button off his coat, solemnly presented it to her. —James Barrie Wimminfolk they be tricksy. - ZenGum |
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03-22-2005, 12:20 PM | #14 |
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All three of my kids, who are each special needs in one way or another (brain-injured, huge geek and schizophrenic, in order from oldest to youngest), were/are mercilessly taunted, bullied, threatened and physically attacked by their schoolmates. The middle son has been accused of sexual harassment (accuser later admitted it was BS), spit on while walking home, chased down by four kids in a car right in front of his own home and countless other outrages. A large part of it is racial in nature, but we couldn't do anything about that since it is not possible to discriminate against Caucasians.
Each and every time, it has been the same old drill...go to the school, meet with the principal, wait for them to somehow blame it on the victim, threaten them with legal proceedings, problem solved. Until the next time. I'm surprised *more* kids don't kill at school. It is a vicious place, utterly bereft of education or elevation of people's spirits. Our kids have changed.
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03-22-2005, 12:42 PM | #15 |
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Here is a link to the Guardian's story about the kid's claim to have been a Nazi.
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