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Philosophy Religions, schools of thought, matters of importance and navel-gazing |
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07-17-2006, 07:37 AM | #1 | ||
Radical Centrist
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Location: Cottage of Prussia
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How we know what we know: utter denial in human beings
Utter denial: once in a while you get a clear example of this sort of thing, and I think it is fasinating to see.
Billy posted the web site for a project by two Brits who reenacted Mao's "Long March". Mao himself said that the length of this march was 25,000 li, or about 7800 miles. That "fact" became a truth for the Chinese people. But when they actually studied it and walked it, it turned out to be shorter: Quote:
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07-17-2006, 07:44 AM | #2 |
Radical Centrist
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My thinking on this is affected by an NPR piece I listened to about two years ago. There was this guy who was half black as his mother had sex with a gentleman of color. Mom however steadfastly denied it to the kid all his life. She told him that there was American Indian in their bloodline and his darkish appearance was due to that. His belief became so steadfast that even when presented with scientific evidence that showed the contrary, he refused to believe it for years and years, and lived in the denial state. That denial state is fascinating to me. Things that are not true, but are believed anyway because to not believe them is psychologically difficult.
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07-17-2006, 10:10 AM | #3 | |
in the Hour of Scampering
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07-17-2006, 08:42 AM | #4 |
Day Tripper
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DENIAL: Don't Even kNow I Am Lying
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07-17-2006, 10:12 AM | #5 |
Slattern of the Swail
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Labs, especially understaffed and overpressed American labs, have been known to make HUGE mistakes. HUGE. A man was poisoned by his wife with Anti-Freeze: the testing lab made a fatal error (very usual, by the way) and misplaced a decimal point in the results. Neveryoumind that antifreeze in ANY amount should NOT be found in humans...the lab dismissed it. Years went by before the wife was prosecuted. Medical mistakes are de riguer. It is POSSIBLE to doubt results--either lab or otherwise. Thats all I mean. d'you know how many false negative pap smears go by?
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In Barrie's play and novel, the roles of fairies are brief: they are allies to the Lost Boys, the source of fairy dust and ...They are portrayed as dangerous, whimsical and extremely clever but quite hedonistic. "Shall I give you a kiss?" Peter asked and, jerking an acorn button off his coat, solemnly presented it to her. —James Barrie Wimminfolk they be tricksy. - ZenGum Last edited by Trilby; 07-17-2006 at 10:16 AM. |
07-19-2006, 11:10 AM | #6 | |
To shreds, you say?
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07-19-2006, 04:07 PM | #7 | |
in the Hour of Scampering
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"Neither can his Mind be thought to be in Tune,whose words do jarre; nor his reason In frame, whose sentence is preposterous..." |
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07-17-2006, 11:00 AM | #8 | |
Your Bartender
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07-17-2006, 12:10 PM | #9 |
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Very interesting subject .
Let's start with getting rid of the easy reply 'what is truth anyway?' I have a lot of problems with the concept of time for example . I know that X particular event only ran on for a couple of hours , but why the hell does it take up the whole of my head then ? I know that that other X period of time ran on for years and years , but why does it only take up about one second of my brain ? OK , now that is out of the way , it is interesting to remember that not all cultures count like we do . In many languages , once you have got past the fingers and toes , everything else is 'a lot' ( those cultures put detail elsewhere) . We can hardly say that the Chinese think in terms of 'a lot' . No one knows more about counting than they do . Mao obviously played around with figures and other people's credibility . This is not good , but then neither was Mao . Seeing how little things actually were is part of growing up . We have all gone back to that huge tree of our childhood only to find out that it is just an ordinary old tree . That bottomless , scary cupboard turns out to be a scruffy little glory-hole . I have never been able to grow up completely though , as I still see my father as tall , brave and wonderful . Well , he IS tall , brave and wonderful . And apparently it is not true about being able to see the Great Wall of China from outer space . |
07-17-2006, 12:31 PM | #10 |
Zen Laxatives: "This too shall pass..."
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As a recent historical corollary, one could ask how many men were in the Million Man March? So long as history names it such, the actual number won't really matter, as it's as much a symbol as anything. In this case, the numbers aren't quite so conclusive as the Long March, but the effects of a significant number remain.
"The Boston University team figured that there were 878,587 marchers. With an estimated error margin of 25%, the number of participants could have been as high as 1,098,234 or as low as 658,940." Info found here: http://observe.arc.nasa.gov/nasa/edu...llion_man.html |
07-17-2006, 01:07 PM | #11 |
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Good point , Ridgeplate . It is also a very white American point , as was Undertoad's . Both your complementary points are valid , of course . Perhaps we choose to count when it is in our interest ? And how many tears have you counted in The Trail of Tears ?
And in America , do they do what they do in France , Ridgeplate ? Whenever there is a public demonstration , the trade unions give one figure , and the police a much lower one . (There are no more public demonstrations in the United Kingdom , by the way . Mrs Thatcher managed to kill all the trade unions , and no one dares to demonstrate against capitalism in the UK any more .) |
07-17-2006, 02:06 PM | #12 | |
in the Hour of Scampering
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Quote:
I guess we'll deprecate Orwell's observations on language and politics too...perhaps not American, but certainly white. Clearly guilty of excessive occidentalism. And here is a point that may be a white American point without the speaker even being white. A miracle!
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"Neither can his Mind be thought to be in Tune,whose words do jarre; nor his reason In frame, whose sentence is preposterous..." |
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07-17-2006, 01:11 PM | #13 |
This moment is a gift, thats why they call it the present.
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I experience MY truth about the world. This truth is based on my perceptions of all past experiences and knowledge. Joe has his truth, Mary has her truth, Dave has his truth, etc, etc until we encompass every person living, as well as all those that came before us. Some of us group together and agree to have an identical portion of the truth. Thus we have a mathematical group that agrees 4 + 4 = 8, we have a Christian group that agrees in salvation through Christ, we have an alcoholic group that agrees a liquid substance can control their lives,etc, etc until we encompass every group that is and has ever been. The largest group around , humans, (most humans anyway) have a truth inside us that says "I AM this truth that I perceive". So if you disagree with one of my truths you are attacking me personally as well as all my groups that I belong to. Also, if I would happen to allow myself to believe your truth that means part (if not all) of me dies.
Truth in this world is only perceptual. Accepting a new truth = death. Denial becomes survival
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07-17-2006, 01:20 PM | #14 |
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Very interesting , Bluesky .
What do you do to the people who you think are attacking you and your groups ? |
07-17-2006, 01:29 PM | #15 |
This moment is a gift, thats why they call it the present.
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If I'm speaking in generalities (as I was in my previous post), I'll speak as most humans do:
I will kill you spiritually, emotionally, or physically to prove my truth is stronger than yours. If I'm speaking for me personally: I TRY to acknowledge that your attack on my truth is only an ill conceived attempt for you to protect yourself and then communicate understanding back. Notice I said try, it is a very ingrained habit in all of us to perceive these things as attacks and then attack back.
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-- I’m a Father, Husband, Son, Computer Dude, Sometimes Artist, Thirty Something, American, Jeep Driver, and devotee to truth, on a life path to remove the labels placed on my existence. -- |
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