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10-27-2002, 12:48 PM | #1 |
Radical Centrist
Join Date: Jan 2001
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Congrats and condolences to the Ruskies
The death toll in the Chechen hostage situation has risen to 118 captives and 50 rebels. But with 750 rescued from terrorists who were loaded with bombs, with the entire place mined, and the rebels willing to die with their fingers on the detonator buttons, the toll could have been much higher.
What kind of gas could be inserted into a room via the ventilation system and would have the effect of immediately rendering everyone in the building unconscious without being detected? Apparently the gas killed some of the people all by itself, and others had to be hospitalized for nothing other than gassing. Here's speculating it was a powerful nerve agent. The hospitalized don't include any of the rebels because the modus operandi here was to walk in after the gas had taken effect and shoot the baddies cold. That works for me, but I do wonder whether the US authorities would have the same level of resolve. Apparently that's how it had to be done; if one of them wakes up early and detonates, the death toll could be much, much higher. In fact, it could have been like this: you have ten minutes to get in, and with your special breathing equipment in place, put a bullet in the head of anyone with a bomb strapped to their belly, and give this antidote to everyone else you can find. I don't know, but that might have been how it was. |
10-27-2002, 02:05 PM | #2 |
dripping with ignorance
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I personally wonder what the US public would say if the authorities did something like that. That's one of the very few drawback of a democracy.
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10-27-2002, 03:46 PM | #3 |
retired
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Waco
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10-27-2002, 05:17 PM | #4 |
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Killed <b>some</b> all by itself?
Er, more like about 115. :\ |
10-27-2002, 06:05 PM | #5 |
in the Hour of Scampering
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Location: Jeffersonville PA (15 mi NW of Philadelphia)
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Oxymoron: "Non-lethal weapons"
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10-27-2002, 09:17 PM | #6 |
whig
Join Date: Apr 2001
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Maggie from all accounts it was a military nerve agent, i don't think it was meant to be non-lethal when it was developed for a start. Secondly those types of chems affect different people in wildly different ways, enough to cause one person to feel sick is enough to kill someone else. Until more is known about the agent in question its pointless to draw any conclusions from it, although i can't blame the Russians for their approach, it was an extremely dangerous situation.
As for your rather entertaining conclusion I'd love to know how you can assume that everything from teargas to netguns to beanbag rounds to watercannons to some classes of microwave weapons to bioactive agents that attack fuel and gunpowder are clearly lethal. Yes, if you try hard enough you can kill someone with pretty much anything (Harry from lock stock and two smoking barrels comes to mind), doesn't mean its easy, or intended for that purpose, weaponary included. I also don't see how the issues are connected unless your playing 6 degrees of flamewar seperation.
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10-27-2002, 09:29 PM | #7 |
no one of consequence
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lol
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10-28-2002, 09:02 AM | #8 | |||
in the Hour of Scampering
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The stats at the moment seem to be that out of about 750 hostages, about 120 of them died from the gas. Not an impossibly bad outcome, given the situation, I suppose. Quote:
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That's an astounding array of "magic bullets" you've cited, too. "Beanbag rounds" and "rubber bullets" are of course safe and extremely effective...except when fired by Israelis. :-) Microwave death rays are highly effective at accomplishing thier basic mission: extracting money from governments. Bioagents that eat gas and shit gunpoowder (or is it "eat gunpowder and piss gasoline"?) are probably quite useful if you have months to spare.
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"Neither can his Mind be thought to be in Tune,whose words do jarre; nor his reason In frame, whose sentence is preposterous..." Last edited by MaggieL; 10-28-2002 at 09:06 AM. |
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10-28-2002, 09:37 AM | #9 |
retired
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If military forces gas their own people, is it not incumbent upon them to provide an antidote to the innocent civilians?
Some of the innocent victims are reported to have died because of a lack of informed treatment. If the Russian government doesn't want to disclose the chemical structure of the gas, it should have taken the survivors to military hospitals for treatment by informed military doctors. Last edited by Nic Name; 10-28-2002 at 10:14 AM. |
10-28-2002, 05:10 PM | #10 | |
in the Hour of Scampering
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"Neither can his Mind be thought to be in Tune,whose words do jarre; nor his reason In frame, whose sentence is preposterous..." Last edited by MaggieL; 10-28-2002 at 05:14 PM. |
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10-28-2002, 05:25 PM | #11 | |||
whig
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As for 'chemical weapons', for which I assume you're referring to pepper spray, i think you'll find the fatality or even injury rate is a tad lower than lets say a glock18 or a magnum pistol. You also mangled my first point, obviously the agent, whatever it was was not meant to be lethal in this situation but if it is cold war era chem weaponry I'm sure it was in its original concentrations for battlefield use, it was just quickly, and quite possibly badly adapted for use on everyone from kids to the elderly in an enclosed space. Quote:
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10-28-2002, 07:21 PM | #12 | |||
in the Hour of Scampering
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Pardon me for letting that secret slip out. Quote:
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10-28-2002, 08:15 PM | #13 | |||
whig
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I mean Weapon 1. An instrument of attack or defense in combat, as a gun, missile, or sword. 2. Zoology. A part or organ, such as a claw or stinger, used by an animal in attack or defense. 3. A means used to defend against or defeat another: Logic was her weapon. Lethal 1. Capable of causing death. 2. Of, relating to, or causing death. See Synonyms at fatal. 3. Extremely harmful; devastating: accusations lethal to the candidate's image. NATO defines a non-lethal weapon as Quote:
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JI != Al Qudea Islamic Fundamentalist tendencies and links to Al Queda != Al Queda. The Chechen struggle has links to Islamic Fundamentalism but is not an Islamic based cause the same way Al Queda is. Stop over and misusing the term, when you get into the nitty grittyof these issues most Islamic organisations you hear of are unbrella ones that cover thousands of suborganisations that change name and structure with bewildering frequency, JI itself is a great example of this. If you want to argue about this i'd be very careful about who you claim is in Al Queda. While Al Queda has links to most extremist Islamic organisations these links, proven or not do not mean the organisation in question is Al Queda, operates under Al Queda or ever operates with Al Queda, many of these groups have severe ideological differences (think catholic/rest of the church), the MMC in Pakistan is a good example of this. But we could be talking at cross purposes as in country i'm talking about is called Chechnya and the people are called Chechens. I’m not sure who the Chechnians are. Nic: I've got a nasty feeling there is a good reason they're not letting out what the gas was or anyone into the hospital.
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Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain Last edited by jaguar; 10-28-2002 at 08:39 PM. |
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10-28-2002, 11:25 PM | #14 | ||||
in the Hour of Scampering
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"An epithet of a contrary signification is added to a word...". "Non-lethal" is the epithet, and "weapon" is the word. The examples of "weapon" offered in your own definition were guns, missiles and swords,.all known to comport perfectly with the concept of "non-lethality", right? No "contrary signification" here... The <b>intent</b> with this chemical weapon was presumambly that it not be lethal, only incapacitating, and it turned out to be a hell of a lot more lethal than was intended. The core problem with the idea of a "non-lethal weapon" is that it seeks to walk such a fine line between being *too* incapacitating and not being incapacitating enough. To do that successfully requires much more control that you will ever have in a chemical agent, especially one used in combat. Look what a fine line an anesthesiologist walks to keep a patient under general anesthesia. With a constant read-out of heart rate, respiration, blood pressure and oxygenation, and extremely precise control of IV dosages and breathing gas mixtures, an anesthetist can keep *one* person delicately balanced between "too awake to operate on" and "dead" for long enough to get through a surgery. Usually. It's entirely possible that the scene commanders played the best possible hand from the cards they were dealt. That more people weren't killed is indeed amazing. But here we had something like 1,000 people, and the goal was to incapacitate the youngest ones in the best condition so quickly they didn't have time to set off the bombs in the building and strapped to their bellies, while not killing the folks who came to see the musical. Doses were administered in bulk to the entire building at once, and feedback was whatever could be seen though fiberscopes or whatever access they had to the inside of the occupied building. If any. Quote:
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After all, there is no <b>guilt</b>; all they have to do is avoid <b>blame</b>. That's why after 9/11 we got this load of hooey from the Taliban that ran "Oh, bin Laden? He's only our guest. Prove to us that he's done these terrible things you accuse him of." Aren't you perfectly willing to sanction blaming the US for what the Israelis do? (Oh, but *that's* different. Sure it is.) Quote:
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10-29-2002, 02:02 AM | #15 | ||||
whig
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