Hand wringing about Jill leaving.

[footfootfoot]

Here is where you can wring your hands over Jill's leaving. Breast beating and brow furrowing is in another thread.

"If only I hadn't been so sarcastic..."

[lookout123]

Someone who has been absent for a long time packed up and left after a short visit??? OMGoes to get another bowl of cereal...

[Aliantha]

But I want to beat my breasts here!

[DanaC]

Well, since I was the one who made the fuss about it:

I am a little pissed she's gone, but to be honest i was more pissed that yet another seemingly reasonable person has been driven away by aggression and personal attacks when attempting to have a political discussion.

But hey, if you want to characterise that as handwringing over the loss of one member you go right ahead.

[monster]

She'll be back.

[DanaC]

Maybe, maybe not. Really not the point though.

Last time she left for how long? a year or two? Just long enough to forget what drove her off the last time (getting into a firefight with a wingnut in the politics forum) and then she came back and was given a stark reminder.

Well done us.

[monster]

OFFS she's clearly an attention ho -moreso than me, even. Would you have mourned so if she had dressed to the right rather than the left?

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by monster

OFFS she's clearly an attention ho -moreso than me, even. Would you have mourned so if she had dressed to the right rather than the left?

If she'd dressed to the right and been treated the way she's been treated in the politics forum, yes.

I really don't see she was an attention whore. She clearly enjoys having a political debate. It's just a shame that isn't really an option in here.

I also like having a political debate but I rarely do so these days.

@ Clod: Jill recognised her role with Merc and fessed up to it. Then got shat on somewhat more mildly, but still as far as i can see for no real reason, by someone else. Less of an attack, but on the back of the previous one, I can see why she just thought oh fuck it. Y'know, it just isn't worth it.

A sentiment I can fully relate to.

[Stormieweather]

I have lots to say about politics, but I won't say it here. I've observed that there is no possibility whatsoever of a reasonable political debate on these forums.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Just to be absolutely clear: though I like Jill, I don't really know her that well. I'm not oh so upset that she isn't here. I'm annoyed at the way this keeps happening. She isn't the first and she won't be the last. Reasonable people attempting to have a robust political discussion with people of varying opinions end up being subjected to personal attacks and trying to argue rationally with people who are being irrational.

That doesn't make for a fun debate.

Originally Posted by Stormieweather

I have lots to say about politics, but I won't say it here. I've observed that there is no possibility whatsoever of a reasonable political debate on these forums.

there isn't much debate going on in the Politics forum. And that's a goddamn shame. It should be renamed "Argument Clinic" or "Shouting".

I see debate as a contest of ideas, using words and ears and eyes. Also, for competitve debates where the only idea is to win we have the kinds of debaters for that but no impartial judges. but that kind of debating is to my mind NOT what the Politics forum is for, certainly not what I want in the politics forum. I want to be informed, perhaps to be persuaded. I want to learn. And that means an open mind, but there isn't much of that on display. Very little express acknowledgment that the "other side" has much valid to offer. It seems such an admission is tantamount to a sign of weakness--anathema to the current tone.

It's not just in the cellar. I see and hear it all over the place. It's just as sad there too, and just as useless.

Among my high priorities, what is good for the country ranks right up there. And I *wish* the discussions were 1 -- among people who shared such priorities, and 2 -- that there would be more listening and openmindedness as to the method by which we reach our putatively shared goals.

It's sad and frustrating.

[DanaC]

From the thread where I attacked you Flint:

@ Flint: that post is so arrogant. You've basically accused Jill of having no mind of her own and only being interested because she's been manipulated by the press. And not only arrogant but aggressive too.

Personally, I think she made some interesting points. Her arguments stack up more firmly than the counter-argument (to me) in this thread: I have not been bombarded by news on this issue. I am basing my response entirely on what's in this thread. I have seen not one single news report about this issue. It is entirely possible to form this opinion without having it shoved fully formed into your brain by journalists. Try tackling the actual issue instead of making personal attacks.

And from this thread:

Originally Posted by DanaC

@ Clod: Jill recognised her role with Merc and fessed up to it. Then got shat on somewhat more mildly, but still as far as i can see for no real reason, by someone else. Less of an attack, but on the back of the previous one, I can see why she just thought oh fuck it. Y'know, it just isn't worth it.

A sentiment I can fully relate to.

Are those the personal attacks and accusations to which you are referring?

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by DanaC

(getting into a firefight with a wingnut in the politics forum)

It takes two to tango. It should have been apparent from the first half-dozen posts that she wasn't going to convince either UG or Merc of anything. No harm if she wants to continue past that point, that's her call, but it's kind of silly to cry foul and leave when you only got what you insisted upon receiving.

[DanaC]

Just to be absolutely clear: though I like Jill, I don't really know her that well. I'm not oh so upset that she isn't here. I'm annoyed at the way this keeps happening. She isn't the first and she won't be the last. Reasonable people attempting to have a robust political discussion with people of varying opinions end up being subjected to personal attacks and trying to argue rationally with people who are being irrational.

That doesn't make for a fun debate.

[DanaC]

Right. So, if your main gig is politics and you come to the Cellar expecting to be able to engage in that subject with other people who are interested in politics, you can expect to be insulted, derided and disrespected.

Little surprise then that we keep losing political animals.

It is not healthy.


And as for the left-right split: I don't know why it is, because there are rational and reasonable people of all stripes in the cellar, but the ones that tend to get driven away by this shit do tend to be the left-leaning ones. The most vehement and consistent nastiness seems to come primarily from the right. That's not to say everyone on the right is doing this, but there is a definate imbalance as far as i can see.

[DanaC]

No word of a lie, I have had friends express an interest in joining the Cellar and I have warned them away. Because they are into politics and are on the left. So, I know what they'll be faced with when they attempt to engage in a political discussion.

And if they do end up being driven away well, as has bene pointed out in another thread: their fault for being too political right?

Couldn't possibly be that we as a community simply cannot be trusted to engage with people of differing political viewpoints in an adult and respectful manner.