Alcoholics Anonymous is a Religion

[Vulgar Freudian]

Every American appellate court that has addressed the issue in recent years has determined that AA and similar 12 step programs are religions for First Amendment establishment clause purposes, hence atheist prisoners and defendants cannot constitutionally be required to attend 12 step programs.

Griffin v. Coughlin, 88 N.Y.2d 674, 673 N.E.2d 98, 649 N.Y.S.2d 903 (N.Y. 1996), Kerr v. Farrey, 95 F.3d 472 (7th Cir. 1996), Warner v. Orange County Dept. of Probation, 827 F. Supp. 261 (S.D.N.Y. 1993), Evans v. Board of Pardons and Paroles, 56 S.W.2d 478 (Tenn., 1997).

[Happy Monkey]

Well, it isn't a religion in itself, but it does require some form of religious expression, sorta like the Boy Scouts. Of course, also like the Scouts, I'm sure thare are AA gatherings that are tied to a patricular religion and push it pretty hard, regardless of the official position of the national organization.

[Rock Steady]

Actually, the courts think it is a religion itself. AA requires a person to believe in a higher power to take control of their lives.

There are agnostic AA meetings where a member can pick a secular higher power, such as the group, the ocean, or an undefined spirtuality.

Another thing to account for is that some things that are unconsitutuional as sentences are valid for plea bargains, such as Anabuse medication or AA meetings.

If Alcoholics Anonymous are going for the religion stakes , they should head for Islam . Christianity is crap at banning booze .

[Chewbaccus]

The official stance of AA is that (paraphrasing) members are "powerless over alcohol, and none but a higher power may restore them".

Now, depending on where you are influences what exactly a "higher power" is. For instance, AA meetings held in a Christian church basement will therefore be attended by Christians who take God as their higher power. I can't speak from experience, but I would believe that meetings held in other religious houses would follow along similar lines. I personally never heard of meetings being held on strictly secular ground, but I imagine it possible.

And Bud, that's just the Catholics. Protestants use grape juice.

[Crimson Ghost]

[quote=Chewbaccus]The official stance of AA is that (paraphrasing) members are "powerless over alcohol, and none but a higher power may restore them". [quote]

I am powerless over my bills, and nothing but money may restore me.

I've seen one of these meetings. A guy who claimed he couldn't talk in front of friends had no problem getting up in front of twenty strangers and saying "Hi, I'm Jack, and I'm an Alcoholic."

I don't believe in Alcoholics Anonymous.
I ain't anonymous.
And everyone knows I drink.
And I ain't an alcoholic.
I'm a drunk.
Alcoholics go to the meetings.

[Trilby]

Originally Posted by Crimson Ghost

A guy who claimed he couldn't talk in front of friends had no problem getting up in front of twenty strangers and saying "Hi, I'm Jack, and I'm an Alcoholic.

Exactly. Insanity. what is one of the scariest things for people to do? Public speaking. In AA they ask you to speak in front of a room of strangers for an hour and spill your guts. The thought of doing that engenders a very strong need for a drink in me. I like Rational Recovery.

[Stormieweather]

I know this doesn't work for everyone, but I didn't turn myself over to a 'higher power' and I didn't go to any meetings, I took control of myself. I realized I was going overboard (an understatement) with the alcohol and I simply quit buying it or ordering it when I was out. Now, I rarely go to bars or places that exclusively serve alcohol. I keep plenty of non-alchoholic bottled drinks around for the times I just want that old, familiar feeling of having my fist wrapped around the neck of a bottle and chugging down whatever it contains.

I haven't had a drop of alcohol in more than three years. I don't miss the hangovers, that's for sure. I do miss the lack of inhibitions that alcohol gave me. I was funny, affectionate, verbose and a wild cat in bed when I drank. Sober, I'm much more reserved and shy.

Oh well.

Stormie

[Chewbaccus]

Originally Posted by Crimson Ghost

I am powerless over my bills, and nothing but money may restore me.

Folks, to be fully blunt with you all, I've seen more snide, self-righteous sentiment here on this board to this point than I have in any AA room I've ever been in. (Granted, I've also never been in a place that Rock described, but still.)

You lot can drink and put the bottle down. Congratulations. You are not an alcoholic. An alcoholic is not "that guy at the bar that has one final drink before last call". Alcoholism is a form of a mental disease whereby the victim simply cannot feel good about him or herself without an external stimulus to that particular part of the brain. Alcoholics use booze. Other drug users use their particular drug of choice. Sex addicts bone. Alcohol for an alcoholic is just the way that particular person manifests their problem.

The public speaking thing, you'd be amazed. First of all, someone doesn't walk in on their first day and spill their guts. It takes quite a while. Further - and this is just my hypothesis - people are spooked about speaking to crowds mostly because they know/see/interact with the people in said crowd on a fairly regular basis, therefore any error or public humiliation will stay with them long after they have left the podium.

In AA, you (by and large) don't know the people in the rooms. Everyone's on a first-name basis, which seven times out of ten is usually an alias. When you get up to speak, you know that (A) what you're about to say is very similar to what you've been hearing others say for the last X meetings you've gone to with your own personal twists to it, and (B) what you say in that room stays in that room. It won't be a topic of conversation at the water cooler, people won't be looking at you funny at the bowling alley, or at the grocery store, or when you pick your kid up at school. When you get up and say your story, nobody for whom it isn't their first time looks at you judgmentally beacuse they recognize the guts it takes to stand up and they also know they've been down a parallel path.

We hear terms "higher power" and "turning your life over" and we make them punchlines. But the fact is that these people cannot simply "stop drinking". They can't take control of themselves, by themselves. They admit this to others, to themselves, and I don't think enough of us realize the sheer magnitude of that admission in a society like ours where self-control and self-reliance come so highly prized.

Say what you will, make all the jokes you want, but the fact remains that there's some serious fucking courage in a lot of those meetings. It's not something to be mocked. It's something to be lauded.

[dar512]

Well written Chew. America as a culture is cynical about pretty much everything. Thanks for reminding us that there are people making hard won changes in their lives. Not all heroes are famous.

[Rock Steady]

CB, you are right about the official stance. It's part of the 12 Steps.

Actually, I've been in secular AA meetings in Church rooms. The Churches charge the AA meetings for the space. There is usually no affiliation with the Church itself.

I chaired a meeting regularly where we changed it to a "FreeThinkers Meeting" eliminating the Lord's Prayer at the end.

[Trilby]

I cannot stomach AA meetings, try as I might. The whole Christianity aspect leaves me dry-heaving. I hate those Holier-Than-Thou MF's. I really do. They believe that an alcoholic must prostrate herself on the alter of humiliation to get well. F*q that. humiliation and Chrisitanity is why I drank in the first place.

[Elspode]

Interestingly, I've seen three different Pagan AA-type groups form and fail. Pagans not only don't want traditional deity-based recovery groups, they don't seem to even want a semblance of organization.

Damn Pagans.

[Rock Steady]

@Els: funny as hell those pagans.

Originally Posted by Brianna

I cannot stomach AA meetings, try as I might. The whole Christianity aspect leaves me dry-heaving. I hate those Holier-Than-Thou MF's. I really do. They believe that an alcoholic must prostrate herself on the alter of humiliation to get well. F*q that. humiliation and Chrisitanity is why I drank in the first place.

Amen, girlfriend. I know what you are saying. There is an AA group in Etan near here that we call "On-your-knees Etan". Twice I've seen people from that group go to other AA meetings and make some poor guy kneel down in the parking lot.

This same guy came to my FreeThinkers meeting and argued that we should re-institute the Lord's Prayer. I told him that I searched the Big Book, and the Lord's Prayer is never mentioned. Voting consensus was to keep the FreeThinkers format.

And, yea, the Catholic Church is the biggest factory that produces Alcoholics.

I went thru that AA phase and decided that I wasn't really an alcoholic after all. It was good to put the drink to the side for a while. Also, I came out of the whole process with some new tools. I still say the Serenity Prayer often.

Gwen, grant me
The Serentity to accept the things I can not change,
The Courage to change the things I can and
The Wisdom to know the difference.

Progress, not perfection.

Also, I found it to be a good idea for me after finishing a pint of rum, not to drive out and buy another one.

[tw]

Peter Coors, 59, and president of Coors Brewing company was recently arrested for drunk driving. And some once insisted they had to do a hajj west of the Mississippi for that beer. Sounds like a religion to me - complete with alcoholics.