Antiwar protests increase probability of war - Page 3

Undertoad · 02-26-2003, 12:10 AM

USS Clueless speculates that the Turkish buyout was not really to be able to have a second front; it might have been to have US troops occupying northern Iraq specifically so Turkish troops wouldn't be able to pull off any funny stuff. There are so many balls in the air at this point I can't count them.

jaguar · 02-26-2003, 12:15 AM

The kurds don't seem to really like the US that much, whoever marches into that bit of land better expect to cop some shit.

wolf · 02-26-2003, 12:39 AM

There may ultimately be an attempt by the Turks to reclaim a portion of northern Iraq (not coincidentally the portion with the oil under it) as having been ancestrally theirs as part of the Ottoman Empire.

Griff · 02-26-2003, 06:10 AM

Now an Ottoman Empire is within everones grasp. apologizing in advance

02-26-2003, 08:00 AM

North Korea does. But we've been over this. The US does not have a military option in DPRK.

russotto · 02-26-2003, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dave
North Korea does. But we've been over this. The US does not have a military option in DPRK.

Yes, the US does have a military option in DPRK.

It just happens to be a really bad one.

wolf · 02-26-2003, 02:02 PM

Do you think DPRK might settle down some if we buy enough of their mousepads and heroic people's clocks from their cafepress.com site?

jaguar · 02-26-2003, 02:49 PM

So dave what you're saying is that the US military will not risk getting a bloody nose in a major war and instead would rather stick to paving desert cities at long range.

The point i'm trying to make is that a war on Iraq is not based on who poses the biggest risk to international stability or even the United States but who makes a good punching bag to help boost bush in the opinion polls.

02-26-2003, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jaguar
The point i'm trying to make is that a war on Iraq is not based on who poses the biggest risk to international stability or even the United States but who makes a good punching bag to help boost bush in the opinion polls.

I disagree with you. I'm highly skeptical of Bush right now and I haven't been convinced on a war, but I don't believe that the only reason he's doing it is for polls. So I think you're wrong.

jaguar · 02-26-2003, 03:43 PM

Well i'd really like to think there was another reason but i'm having trouble. Oil? Doesn't make economic sense. Humanatarianism? Gotta be kidding me!? And clearly it's not based upon who poses a greater threat.

Military action in Iraq for a domestic audiance? Didn't someone else do that? IIRC T brought it up only a few days ago.

tw · 02-26-2003, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jaguar
The point i'm trying to make is that a war on Iraq is not based on who poses the biggest risk to international stability or even the United States but who makes a good punching bag to help boost bush in the opinion polls.

For some time now, demonstrated are how the battles are fought inside this American government. Going right back to the threatened war over a silly spy plane. Repeatedly referred are policies advocated by Wolfowitz. Especially critical is the 1992 Wolfowitz memo that is a centerpiece of the Bush Doctrine.

Last night, Frontline provided interviews from people who are there. We have the Realists - such as Brent Scrocroft and James Bakers of the George Sr administration. We have Colin Powell of the moderates - a man whose attempt in the UN was to legitimize a war in Iraq so that this administration does not enter into war illegally. And we have the neo-conservatives or neo-Reaganites who claim America can attack anyone that America demeans a threat. America has the right to force democracy on other nations. That is the Bush Doctrine. A sort of "we know who is evil and reserve the right to attack evil". Again, everything in 'black and white' and only the president knows evil when he sees it.

http://www.pbs.org/frontline

The piece is so full of facts that I need a yellow highlighter. Entitled "The War Behind Closed Doors". It is 'must see TV'. Don't know when it will play again.

Notce when George Jr decided Saddam should be removed - and why. We have the right to assasinate another world leader? WMD are only an excuse. But this is fundamental. If you don't understand the debate about containment verses pre-emption, then you don't understand how the George Jr administration thinks.

I am contantly reminded of a comment by Colin Powell about Christine Whitman - the wind dummy.

Undertoad · 02-26-2003, 04:17 PM

Jag, Bush is not running this war in order to gain popularity in polls.

Every single person in the White House is perfectly aware that the LAST Bush scored 90% popularity immediately after Iraq I and was de-elected 2 years later. If Iraq II goes off, it happens at almost the same point in Bush II's Presidency: with around 2 months left in the race for a second term.

Lastly, if the people are in favor of war, a President will be popular if he prosecutes it well. Presecute it poorly, though, and you may as well not even run for a second term. So this is a two-edged sword in every way.

And now briefly back to the thread subject:

Effectiveness of protests questioned

Quote:

But according to a study by political science graduate student Phil Gussin, the opinions of people who conditionally supported war changed toward favoring war when shown photographs of Bush and then of anti-war demonstrators.

"If anti-war demonstrators are trying to gather support by having their pictures shown, they are having the opposite effect," Gussin said.

Subjects who were shown pictures of the president had a seven percent higher approval rating for Bush compared to those who were shown other, non-political pictures, Gussin said. Subjects shown pictures of Bush and anti-war photographs had a 15 percent higher approval rating than the control group, Gussin said.

jaguar · 02-26-2003, 05:59 PM

So then, playing along, if this is domestic reasons and is, in theory, for security reasons. Why is little or nothing being done about the DPRK?
I'm yet to hear why they are not 10 times the threat a rather battered Iraq is.

The other thing is is anyone shocked he is not handing over weapons? I meanbloody hell. It's very obvious Bush is going to attack, if i was Saddam the LAST thing i'd do is hand over all my weaponry, it's like saying "give us all your defences or we're going to attack you!" Well bloody hell thats a good way of getting cooperation.

It's like 2 guys pointing guns at each other and one going "ok, put your gun down and i swear i won't shoot you, i mean sure, i've been itching to for years but if you put down your gun, i won't, no, really...".

Still yet to see any evidence of the mythical Al Queda links either. Guess the evidence is with the 6 arab terrorists hiding near the Canadian border.....

elSicomoro · 02-26-2003, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tw
That is Sycamore's problem. His entire thoughts on a subject never amount to more than a few soundbytes. Having so little grasp of a subject, then he must reply with insults.

One of Sycamore's problems, among others, is that morons like you think that lots of words are necessarily important.

Undertoad · 02-26-2003, 09:23 PM

Bush's speech tonight suggested that we are really pursuing an Arab Democracy so that the rest of the Arab world gets the example and takes the hint.

I leave it to people much smarter than I as to whether that could happen, would happen etc. I really have no clue.

02-26-2003, 12:15 AM	#32
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	The kurds don't seem to really like the US that much, whoever marches into that bit of land better expect to cop some shit. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

02-26-2003, 12:39 AM	#33
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	There may ultimately be an attempt by the Turks to reclaim a portion of northern Iraq (not coincidentally the portion with the oil under it) as having been ancestrally theirs as part of the Ottoman Empire. __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

02-26-2003, 06:10 AM	#34
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	Now an Ottoman Empire is within everones grasp. apologizing in advance __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

02-26-2003, 08:00 AM	#35
dave Guest Posts: n/a	North Korea does. But we've been <b>over</b> this. The US <b>does not have a military option in DPRK</b>.

02-26-2003, 02:02 PM	#37
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	Do you think DPRK might settle down some if we buy enough of their mousepads and heroic people's clocks from their cafepress.com site? __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

02-26-2003, 12:10 AM	#31
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	USS Clueless speculates that the Turkish buyout was not really to be able to have a second front; it might have been to have US troops occupying northern Iraq specifically so Turkish troops wouldn't be able to pull off any funny stuff. There are so many balls in the air at this point I can't count them.

02-26-2003, 02:49 PM	#38
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	So dave what you're saying is that the US military will not risk getting a bloody nose in a major war and instead would rather stick to paving desert cities at long range. The point i'm trying to make is that a war on Iraq is not based on who poses the biggest risk to international stability or even the United States but who makes a good punching bag to help boost bush in the opinion polls. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

02-26-2003, 03:43 PM	#40
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	Well i'd really like to think there was another reason but i'm having trouble. Oil? Doesn't make economic sense. Humanatarianism? Gotta be kidding me!? And clearly it's not based upon who poses a greater threat. Military action in Iraq for a domestic audiance? Didn't someone else do that? IIRC T brought it up only a few days ago. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

02-26-2003, 05:59 PM	#43
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	So then, playing along, if this is domestic reasons and is, in theory, for security reasons. Why is little or nothing being done about the DPRK? I'm yet to hear why they are not 10 times the threat a rather battered Iraq is. The other thing is is anyone shocked he is not handing over weapons? I meanbloody hell. It's very obvious Bush is going to attack, if i was Saddam the LAST thing i'd do is hand over all my weaponry, it's like saying "give us all your defences or we're going to attack you!" Well bloody hell thats a good way of getting cooperation. It's like 2 guys pointing guns at each other and one going "ok, put your gun down and i swear i won't shoot you, i mean sure, i've been itching to for years but if you put down your gun, i won't, no, really...". Still yet to see any evidence of the mythical Al Queda links either. Guess the evidence is with the 6 arab terrorists hiding near the Canadian border..... __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

02-26-2003, 09:23 PM	#45
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Bush's speech tonight suggested that we are really pursuing an Arab Democracy so that the rest of the Arab world gets the example and takes the hint. I leave it to people much smarter than I as to whether that could happen, would happen etc. I really have no clue.

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