Whatever happened to the McCarthurs and the Pattons

[jaguar]

It's a stupid thing to say TS, on every level, end of story.
No, the best solution is complete engagement.

[Undertoad]

Well if you really want to participate in this thread you'll have to get more specific.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by jaguar

It's a stupid thing to say TS, on every level, end of story.
No, the best solution is complete engagement.

Your second statement is only agrees with my statement. Partial measures are what cause most problems in the first place.

[jaguar]

Partial measures aren't the problem, the wrong measures are the problem.
UT I feel a touch like a broken record on that one, what's needed is a Marshall plan for the ME, massive economic stimulus, give them jobs and SUVs and watch the decrepit dictatorships and terrorist sympathies slip away. Really is that simple. Apart from Saudi, US backing and Suadi Royal policies have created a country so FUBARed if they leave I don't know what the answer is.

[Undertoad]

Their governments won't stand for such a thing, so won't we have to overturn them first?

Since the average GDP per capita in Saudi Arabia is higher than that of Poland, Latvia, Russia, Chile and (*ahem*) Turkey, and since we already give Egypt $2.2B per year and they still hate us, what evidence do you have that poverty and/or lack of giving is a solution?

[Happy Monkey]

Well, it's not quite that simple, since the decrepit dictatorships will still be there while the plan is in effect, so you have to have a good way to work around them.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Since the average GDP per capita in Saudi Arabia is higher than that of Poland, Latvia, Russia, Chile and (*ahem*) Turkey, and since we already give Egypt $2.2B per year and they still hate us, what evidence do you have that poverty and/or lack of giving is a solution?

The Saudi and Egyptian governments, which are the beneficiaries of the GDP and foreign aid, are quite supportive of the US, at least to our face. Ironically, US support of these dictatorships feeds anti-US sentiment, which allows the governments to use anti-Americanism to deflect resentment away from themselves.

[jaguar]

Er...take a look at a wealth distribution chart for Saudi. Then get back to me about averages. HM is dead on, the US has fostered these regimes for decades - knowing full well they've formented islamic rage as a tool for controlling the population. In terms of how to go about it, bypass the governments, start programmes to foster small biz, R&D, charity type stuff, I'd love to see the governments publically try and shut a programme like that down. Give me a breakdown of where that 2.2B goes, I doubt much of it goes in anything near that direction.

It's not just about poverty, it's about what economic stability and growth brings to a society. It's a bit hard to follow when you've lived in a western country all your life where we moved from needs to wants a long time ago but keeping people inpoverished is a damn good way to keep them under control, they don't worry too much about politics when they're desperate for work.

[Troubleshooter]

I'm reminded of the issue in 1984 where the gov'ts maintain conflict to keep the countries manageable.

[Undertoad]

$1.3B goes to millitary aid, the rest is in humanitarian programs like USAID:

In 1999, the United States and Egypt agreed to a ten-year plan to facilitate Egypt's transition to a self-sustaining market economy. The plan emphasizes promoting job creation, investing in people, and optimizing use of human and natural resources. It focuses on increasing mutual trade and attracting more investment to Egypt, while at the same time developing a more productive and better-trained workforce. Continuing infrastructure investments, protecting the environment and natural resources, strengthening health and family planning services, promoting citizen participation, and expanding and improving educational opportunities are all areas of mutual concern.

98% of Egyptians hate the US. It's a much higher number than hate their own government. How are we doing exactly what you want in Egypt, and it's having exactly the opposite result?

[jaguar]

Firstly, giving 1.3B to prop up a corrupt undemocratic regime.
Secondly, doing it for decades.
Thirdly, doing it to a regime that also has at times actively encouraged hatred of the US.

Since you like quoting:

Significant challenges remain to Egypt's full participation in the global economy. These include policy constraints, a work force growing faster than job creation, an educational system which is not providing all the skills needed by the economy, and low levels of investment in training.

It's a drop in the ocean, the stuff that's needed isn't there. The Marshall plan was over 100billion in today's money (not far off what invading Iraq and creating another focus point for hatred cost), if you threw that at it you'd see real change. You're dealing with decades of indoctrinated hatred, that's not easy to dismantle, nor is it cheap but it's a lot cheaper than *not* spending that money. Extremeists of all shades, nazis to jahidis rely on angry, hurt, disinfranchised people for recruits, remove that pool, remove the problem. It really is that simple.

Bombing people may be a satisfying simplictic solution to placate hyperpatriotic americans but it takes real balls to suck it up and solve the problem instead.

[Undertoad]

There's one big difference between the Marshall Plan and such a concept in the M.E. That is what you have at the end of it after you've spent all that money.

The root problem of Arabic failure is not that they don't have a batch of infrastructure. It's that their culture is fundamentally flawed in the direction of never becoming productive and modern. Germany was the most productive nation in the world before it had to be crushed and re-built. It could be made productive in a new direction. The heart of the M.E. has not produced anything but oil and violence since the years had three numbers in 'em. 1B or 100B is a rathole until the culture changes.

[tw]

Originally Posted by iamthewalrus109

I simply think it's time for a commander to continue when it's ammeable to do as such.

Had we had a Patton or McAurthur, then we would not be in this mess. The 8000 mile screwdriver has done its damage.

Commanders talked back then of having 45 days to get it right. But they could not. The 8000 mile screwdriver failed to do the planning and shorted the military of men. Generals were quite clear about this up front - 200,000 men for two years - minimum. The 8000 mile screwdriver did not do its job - plan for the peace (as demonstrated in the after action reports of the Third Infantry and the resulting widespread looting). And most important - what should have been obvious to every member of the 8000 mile screwdriver: don't disband the army and police. This well written and long understood principle (even in 500 BC) is demonstrated even in the movie Patton - because it is that common knowledge. Patton was at war with domestic politicians because he put the ex-Nazi party leaders back to work fixing the phones and restoring water. Patton did what even Sze Tzu said in 500 BC

45 days later - where was the water and electricity? Notice what Tobias was doing in Iraq then. No one there who knew how to do the work. Anyone in Iraq who knew how to do the work was fired - because they had to be members of the Baath party to get that training.

We are talking about the intelligence of the 8000 mile screwdriver. As a result, we will remain bogged down in Iraq - without a doubt - at minimum for most of a decade. We broke it. Now we own it. Those with intelligence knew that long before we even 'Pearl Harbored' Iraq. What do the troops repeatedly say they are short of? Men. What does the administration not supply? Men. We needed at least 200,000 soldiers in country. As the situation festers, we probably now need more. We provide only 130,000. And just like in Vietnam, more killed insurgents only makes more enemies. They are our insurgents. We created them.

Now we have a situation that is more unsolveable than Hati. How long have troops been in Hati? Democracy can not be forced on a people - no matter what your bible or president says.

It is called the 8000 mile screwdriver. It created the insurgency. It even lied about the electricity supply like it lied about aluminum tubes - for political reasons. We had 45 days and failed. Even the commander of the 101st Airborne took over what Bremmer & Co were suppose to do because many month later - nothing from Bremmer and Co. appeared. Bremmer, et al rarely even left Baghdad. 45 days later and we only made things worse.

Prime breeding ground for insurgency when the rebuilding does not start that week. Virtually all reconstruction projects years later remain stifled - halted.

One learns from history of both Patton and McAurthur. These men did not use war to create peace. There was no interfering 8000 mile screwdriver because back then, those in Washington had planned for the peace years before WWII ended. Requires intelligence and knowledge that the George Jr administration (the 8000 mile screwdriver) has yet to demonstrate. Even worse, Rumsfeld fired the people (transfered from State) who had planned the peace.

We are now killing over 100 American every month- a number that increases every month - years after a mental midget president declared 'Mission Accomplished'. Obviously he thought so because they never bothered to plan for the peace - as was done in the days of both Patton and McAurthur. Back then, the Generals had a president who had intelligence.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

98% of Egyptians hate the US.

Classic Rush Limbaugh education. As one Egyptian friend keeps telling his family back home - its the government - not the American people - who have changed so adversely. Most all people throughout the world both loved the American government and American people. How do you destroy so much popularity so quickly? Impose Christian morals (ie. the Crusades) on international relations. Use the Bible as the basis of all solutions. Fix their governments in with moral Christian values - whether they like it or not. Encourage zionist Israelis to kill anyone who is not a Jew and call that moral. To justify their anti-American propaganda, Rush Limbaughs must claim the world hates Americans. Its called a self-fullfilling prophesy. The world - even Canada - hates George Jr. But can an intelligent person blame them?

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

The heart of the M.E. has not produced anything but oil and violence since the years had three numbers in 'em. 1B or 100B is a rathole until the culture changes.

Been listening to too much Rush Limbaugh again? Iraq and Iran have been two of the most productive nations in that part of the world - even with governments that subvert progress. These were some of the world's more industrious emerging nations. Only nations of great abilities can accomplish nuclear weapons and other advanced technologies - especially with such destructive governments. An American must learn of the world before making wild and speculative conclusions.

No one can fix their governments. That is something they must learn. And until they do, they will not achieve what other third world nations such as S Korea have accomplished. It is up to them to fix what holds them back. But instead, we decided to fix it for them. Dumb dumb dumb - Rush Limbaugh thinkers. No wonder these same people see enemies everywhere in the world. Dumb, dumb, dumb.