Judge Alito will be so pleased

[Lamplighter]

This case will undoubtedly be appealed to the Supreme Court
Can you guess how Sam will vote... it's his career dream come true.

NY Times

Court Dismisses a Case Asserting Torture by C.I.A.

A federal appeals court on Wednesday ruled that former prisoners of the C.I.A. could not sue over their alleged torture in overseas prisons because such a lawsuit might expose secret government information.

By a 6-to-5 vote, the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit dismissed a lawsuit against Jeppesen Dataplan Inc., a Boeing subsidiary accused of arranging flights for the Central Intelligence Agency to transfer prisoners to other countries for imprisonment and interrogation.

When I was younger I promised to myself that I would not become one of those old farts who kept saying "the world is going to hell in a handbasket".
But court decisions like this make me want to reconsider

“To this date, not a single victim of the Bush administration’s torture program has had his day in court,” Mr. Wizner said. “That makes this a sad day not only for the torture survivors who are seeking justice in this case, but for all Americans who care about the rule of law and our nation’s reputation in the world. If this decision stands, the United States will have closed its courts to torture victims while providing complete immunity to their torturers.”

[xoxoxoBruce]

So if you get beat up in a bar, you'll sue the taxi company that took you there.

[Lamplighter]

"By a 6-to-5 vote, the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit dismissed a lawsuit against Jeppesen Dataplan Inc., a Boeing subsidiary accused of arranging flights for the Central Intelligence Agency to transfer prisoners to other countries for imprisonment and interrogation."

Jeppesen was not the taxi company.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Of course they were. They didn't captured anybody, they were hired by the CIA to arrange charter flights. I doubt if they were told who, or even how many, were on those flights.

[Lamplighter]

Well, if you're right the case will not be appealed to the Supreme Court, or if it is appealed the SC will decide not to accept it.

But then, I wonder why the 3-judge court appeals court didn't come to your conclusion and dismiss it outright,
or why the ACLU even decided to take on this case and file it the way they did.
Silly them, and silly me for thinking that participation in rendition and torture at the behest of the CIA is not OK !

After all, if the President says it's legal, then it's legal.
Wait, wait, that's what Sam Alito said a few years ago.
Oh well, this case is not important.
Never mind...

But wait another minute. Alito worked for Reagan who said something along the lines of "Trust, but verify".
I guess they were talking about something else.
Never mind...

[xoxoxoBruce]

Certainly Jeppesen was involved, they were hired to schedule flights, that's what they do. Jeppesen is the worlds biggest provider of flight data, route mapping, and airport patterns, in the world. Christ, the FAA goes them for advice and consent. I would be surprised if Jeppesen doesn't schedule most of the CIA's flights, clandestine or otherwise.

They're suing Jeppesen because they can't sue the CIA. Jeppesen's getting fucked because they're available. It's the same way they sued my buddy the plumbing contractor, when a high rise sprinkler system proved inadequate, even though it was installed as the architect designed it, underwriters and the city approved it, and it was inspected after he installed it.

Yes, it will go to the supremes because it's a political football. These people, and their supporters, are not doing this for compensation. They are trying to castigate the CIA/government, and do an end run with a lawsuit to change policy.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Lamplighter

Jeppesen was not the taxi company.

Absolutely the were nothing but a taxi company. This sounds like some far reaching attempt by the ACLU to make an end around on the inability to sue the government. It is a dead end. They should lose the case and don't have a chance in hell in the US Supreme Court.

[Lamplighter]

Let's assume Bruce's plumber-friend mentioned above is a licensed plumber and the system he installed has a problem.
The owner of the building doesn't know whether it's the fault of the plumber or of the architect or both,
so he sues both and asks the court to decide proportional guilt.

Expert witnesses then examine the installation and tell the court
if the work was done exactly according to the architect's plans or not,
AND they tell the court whether a licensed plumber knew or should have known if the plans were inappropriate.
The court then decides proportional guilt between the plumber and the architect.

In another scenario, let's assume I call a someone and tell them I'm going to rob a bank,
and I'll pay them a lot of money to ( "arrange to" ?) pick me up when I come out of the bank.
Whoever I called knows exactly what I'm doing,
and they do make "arrangements " for some a taxi to help me escape,
and a taxi does pick me so I successfully make my escape from an illegal act.

Again, proportional guilt would need to be decided between ME (the robber),
the "someone" I called to make the arrangements,
whoever actually sends a vehicle, the driver who picks me up,
AND the actions of each party before and after the robbery.
This proportional guilt can only be decided by an independent 3rd-party court of law,
and each of the parties must be named in the case.

Bob Overby, the Managing Director of Jeppesen, has been quoted as being knowledgeable
of the rendition flights and as asserting that his company made profits from these flights.
So it seems reasonable the ACLU has named Jeppesen within the suit.

Of course the ACLU is not going to all this trouble just to get a ruling against only the Jeppesen company.
They are going for a ruling on the legality of the actions of the CIA in the rendition and torture operations.
The only way to get a ruling is in federal court.

I admit to my own belief that the CIA knew that rendition and torture were illegal,
and were attempting to hide their activities.
Call me paranoid or conspiratorial or whatever...

BUT, the point of this case is that the 11-judge appeals court has now ruled
that the public shall get no examination of facts and no decision of (proportional) guilt.
In other words, we citizens must now "Trust, but don't even attempt to verify"

FURTHER, the point of my remarks about Judge Alito is that his advocacy
for unchecked powers in an "Executive Presidency" make his position on such a (potential) case a no-brainer.
Instead, it is the sort of case he would welcome.

I admit to my own belief that the CIA knew that rendition and torture were illegal, and were attempting to hide their activities.
Call me paranoid or conspiratorial or whatever...

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Lamplighter

Let's assume Bruce's plumber-friend mentioned above is a licensed plumber and the system he installed has a problem.
The owner of the building doesn't know whether it's the fault of the plumber or of the architect or both,
so he sues both and asks the court to decide proportional guilt.

Actually, relatives of fire victims sued the plumbing contractor, but not the building owner, architect, City, Underwriters, bank, or insurance company. A judge with half a brain would have said this is not right, but it dragged through the courts for years, with the plaintiffs finally winning millions. Not because the contractor did anything wrong, because he had the money.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Lamplighter

I admit to my own belief that the CIA knew that rendition and torture were illegal, and were attempting to hide their activities.

They were just doing their job as they believed at the time they were directed to do.

[footfootfoot]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

So if you get beat up in a bar, you'll sue the taxi company that took you there.

Would it matter if the taxi company that took you to the bar knew they were hired by the beaters explicitly to deliver beatees?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Bitch, bitch, bitch. OK, Should AAA be sued for providing a Triptik to someone that used it to transport illegal stuff?

[Lamplighter]

xoB, we've been thru these arguments before.
If AAA knew the plan was illegal, it's called conspiracy.

Oh wait ! That's what Ahmed Khalfan Ghailani was convicted of, and may be sentenced to life in prison.

[xoxoxoBruce]

AAA prints a million Triptiks, how the fuck would they know what people are doing with them? Jeppesen does the logistics for millions of flights, for both the government and businesses. How the fuck do they know what the customer is going there for? You obviously don't understand what Jeppesen does. They are the world's leading provider of airport and air route information... to everyone.

[footfootfoot]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Bitch, bitch, bitch. OK, Should AAA be sued for providing a Triptik to someone that used it to transport illegal stuff?

AAA should be sued for being a shitty-ass wouldn't hook me up the one time I called them because it was too late at night to come help our stranded asses in the Arizona desert company. But not about that Triptik stuff.