New system, RFC

[Slithy_Tove]

CPU: Athlon 1.4
Cooler: Millennium Glaciator, with Arctic II and non-conductive shim
Motherboard: ASUS A7M266
Memory: 512MB, 2 sticks of Crucial DDR PC2100 • CL=2.5 • Unbuffered • Non-parity • 2.5V • 32Meg x 64 (PN CT3264Z265)
Case: In Win Q500 ATX
Power supply: Sparkle 400watt #FSP400-60BNA-20
Hard drives: 2 IBM 40G Deskstar 60GXP at RAID 0
1 IBM 20G Deskstar 60GXP for Windows swap
SCSI: Adaptec SCSI Card 2906
RAID: Promise FastTrak100 TX2
CD-RW: Plextor 16x10x40 CDRW
CD/DVD: TOSHIBA DVD ROM, 16X DVD, 48X CD ROM #SD-M1502
Floppy: Mitsumi #D359M3
Sound: on-board sound for now
Video card: ASUS GeForce2, scrounged from another machine
Video capture: Pinnacle DC10+ (from current set-up)
Monitor: Nokia 446Xpro (from current setup)
Connectivity: Efficient Networks SpeedStream 3060 DSL adapter to Verizon DSL service (from current set-up). Oh, yeah, and an existing US Robotics 56K modem on COM1, for Verizon's frequent DSL crashes. :P
OS: Win2K

Most demanding use: gaming and video editing.

Issues/thoughts/rationale:

My major concern is stability and reliability. I'm willing to forgo squeezing that last 5% out of the system, if I can avoid crashes, reboots, BSOD's, re-installs and re-formats.

Motherboard: I'd like RAID, just because faster disk access is always nice, and it helps when you're acquiring a video feed. I had thought about the Gigabyte GA-7DXR, but there are apparently installation problems under Win2K, and even worse, Tribes 2 won't patch, because of an authentication fubar. The Promise on-board RAID controller on the Gigabyte is also apparently software-based, which soaks up cpu clocks. Anyone have experience with either the Win2K problem or the Tribes 2 problem with the FastTrak100 controller? And the Promise PCI controller IS hardware-based, isn't it?

SCSI: This is to support a couple of legacy SCSI devices, a scanner, Zip drive, and small external HD. I realize that with a SCSI card I won't be able to overclock the bus much. I've thought about just getting an Adaptec USB-to-SCSI dongle instead; the price is about the same as the board. Performance will be less, but I don't really need the external HD any more, and it should be sufficient for the scanner and the Zip. But the dongle apparently still needs its own IRQ, despite the fact that it uses the USB bus, and seems like a kludge to me.

Cooler: I plan on overclocking little or none. My major interest is decent cooling, and low noise. Maybe I should just get a generic cooler? Or something like the Volcano 6cu? Mediocre cooler, but pretty quiet, they say.

Drives: Until recently, everyone was recommending the 60GXP, but a lot of the 75GXP's seem to be failing early, and I've heard some worries about recently built 60GXP's. Anyone care to comment on this? Any other drive suggestions? Maxtor? Quantum?

Why three drives? I'm planning on acquiring video to the RAID, while putting the Windows swap on the non-RAID. I've found that the DC10+ drops frames during the first few seconds of video acquisition, I think because Windows is soaking up clocks while it sets up its swap file. (No, setting a fixed-size swap file doesn't seem to make a difference.)

Cables: There's a lot of buzz on the OC sites about rounded cables, and suggestions that they aid case cooling by not impeding airflow. But the one site that actually measured case and CPU temps with both ribbon and rounded cables found less than a degree C of difference in the case, and none in the CPU. And rounded cost more.

BTW, I assume I'll have enough IDE's? The CD/DVD and CDRW will go on one, the 20 gig swap disk on the other, with the two RAIDed disks on the Promise. Is this okay?

Finally: I've done HD and memory installs, but never built a system from scratch before. What does everyone do about grounding? Wrist straps? No one ever seems to mention this on the OC sites. Or does everyone just take it for granted?

Seeking comments and suggestions!

[mbpark]

You've got the system going on there

The system is set up right, especially for burning. I'd have the RAID separate from the other channels, and CD-RW and CD/DVD on separate channels on the MoBo .

It's a great Mobo, and built for Win2K or XP.

The only thing I'd put on would be a SB Live! or SB Audigy (new card), since the AC97 codec on that mobo zaps CPU. A live! is $50 and well worth it, especially for games.

Otherwise, you've got it!

[jaguar]

ASUS MOTHERBOARD ON A 266BUS????
WHY GOD WHY???
I"ve had 6 of these machines in my hands myself - problems with 5 of those baords, the Asus 266DDR bus board are fucking awful, get somthing with the SIS735 shipset!!!!

Cooler: I plan on overclocking little or none. My major interest is decent cooling, and low noise. Maybe I should just get a generic cooler? Or something like the Volcano 6cu? Mediocre cooler, but pretty quiet, they say.

Athlons double as space heaters, i warm my hands by putting htem over the heatsink when i'm cold (winter here, and yes i run my main box open case - cooler and i take alot of shit in and out of it). Want to OC a 1.4?....I'd say get either full refridgeration or water cooling, water ain't that hard to set up in the end, i've seen my friends system running it.

Get the biggest cooler you can - i've got a 1.2 with a ALPHA PAP on it, still @ 50 most of the time. Remember to clean that cooler out regualry, dust builds up and adds temp so fast its not funny. Swifttech make some huge heatsinks(700g!!) that you could get away with running with quieter fans and still get damn good peformance.

If you have some spare drive bays, put fan slots in them, put a fan card after your graphics if you have the space and one fan in the space thats usually on the back next ot the CPU. On top if this get out ya hole cutting blades and cut a hole directly above teh CPU and shove a bigass fan in there, low RPM so not much noise and the temprature difference is noticeable if you fan blows out. I do this with all the machines i build (averaging 3-4 a week now when i have the time)

IBM drives, yea i have heard of some problems but overall IBM make the best harddrives on the market, Quantum are reliable but not the fastest, segate are pretty good and i wouldn't touch a Western Digital with a 30ft pole.

Finally: I've done HD and memory installs, but never built a system from scratch before. What does everyone do about grounding? Wrist straps? No one ever seems to mention this on the OC sites. Or does everyone just take it for granted?

Leave the pwoer supply plugged in(but turn it off obviously), work on a non-static surface and ground yourself on the power supply before picking up each new piece, i've never had a problem. I'm glad to see you invested a good quality PSU, with Athlons you need it. Remember to plug your moniter in sperately to save stress on it too.

[quote]I assume I'll have enough IDE's? The CD/DVD and CDRW will go on one, the 20 gig swap disk on the other, with the two RAIDed disks on the Promise. Is this okay?

Ifyou plan to copy CDs drive to drive you need to put one of those on the other bus, internal bus transfer on IDE are shocking .

[Slithy_Tove]

Originally posted by mbpark
I'd have the RAID separate from the other channels, and CD-RW and CD/DVD on separate channels on the MoBo .

But will that leave me enough channels? Channel 1 for CD-RW, Channel 2 for CD/DVD, Channels 3 and 4 on the Promise controller for the RAID... but where will the 20 gig Windows swap disk go? I don't see anywhere to hang it, but on that second IDE, with the CD-RW and CD/DVD as Master/slave on the first IDE.

The only thing I'd put on would be a SB Live! or SB Audigy (new card), since the AC97 codec on that mobo zaps CPU. A live! is $50 and well worth it, especially for games.

Ah, good to know. I just didn't want to fill up every single one of my PCI slots. But I don't suppose it matters. The TB Santa Cruz has also been recommended, and it apparently uses fewer IRQs than the SB. I've been thinking about that card.

[Slithy_Tove]

Originally posted by jaguar
ASUS MOTHERBOARD ON A 266BUS????
WHY GOD WHY???
I"ve had 6 of these machines in my hands myself - problems with 5 of those baords, the Asus 266DDR bus board are fucking awful, get somthing with the SIS735 shipset!!!!

You know, this is the first time I've ever heard anyone criticize the Asus's quality. People criticize them for being expensive, or only having two DIMM slots, or being a hair behind in the benchmarks from current mb's, but everyone seems to respect their stability and quality.

Get the biggest cooler you can - i've got a 1.2 with a ALPHA PAP on it, still @ 50 most of the time. Remember to clean that cooler out regualry, dust builds up and adds temp so fast its not funny. Swifttech make some huge heatsinks(700g!!) that you could get away with running with quieter fans and still get damn good peformance.

My problem with a heatsink that size is the strain on the socket and MB, especially in the usual tower case with the whole thing mounted sideways.

If you have some spare drive bays, put fan slots in them, put a fan card after your graphics if you have the space and one fan in the space thats usually on the back next ot the CPU.

Good thoughts. I'll probably do this.

IBM drives, yea i have heard of some problems but overall IBM make the best harddrives on the market, Quantum are reliable but not the fastest, segate are pretty good and i wouldn't touch a Western Digital with a 30ft pole.

Yep, I've heard a lot of problems with WD drives as well. I notice Fujitsu just dropped out of the HD market. Too bad, their drives were respected.

Ifyou plan to copy CDs drive to drive you need to put one of those on the other bus, internal bus transfer on IDE are shocking .

But then where will my 20 gig swap drive go? If I put it on the same IDE as one of the CD/DVD's, won't it be limited in data transfer speed to the speed of the slowest device on that IDE, i.e., the CD drive?

Thanks for the lengthy feedback!

[mbpark]

1. Get a SCSI CD-RW in which case. You're in a conundrum if you have that much EIDE going on!

I'm running a SCSI CD-RW on a machine at work, and it works just fine, because SCSI can cope better with copying from IDE or the network, and it's faster

Mitch

[jaguar]

Consider getting a DVD/ATA-66 Drive comes to mind then putting it on one of the other busses, cheaper than getting a SCSI CDRW and card(although its the obvious solution- and yes, SCSI does whip the lamas ass), its all down to money, you could put the 20g swap on SCSI too or instead which would make sense as a swap disk(wait a minute, can you do that with raid, sorry no experince building raid systems. Ill speak to a friend of mine who specialises in _very_ expensive pro video editing systems ($100,000+) about how to set that all up).. I assume you've bought the hardware so.....consider this:

imho (and correct me if i'm wrong but..) the RPM of the drive has a far larger impact on speed than the IDE transfer rate (ATA-33/66/100 etc) so why not put the CD on the same channel as the swap, least you'll still be able to burn cd-to-cd. Even most games now do not use the CD drive much during play so apart from adding a few minutes on your instal times for big software it will have little effect in the end.

SB Lives value are great cards...but....(and here ill justify my opinion of asus too) I've built a few machines wiht the origional asus A7V's and when you put a live in those as wel as another PCI card they seem to nick the IRQ of the PS/2 mouse causing windows to hang on boot, i fixed this by removing the DOS emulation drivers which grab an IRQ on boot, locking the IRQ of the PCi slot dosen't have any effect.

The other problem is with the Promise IDE controller (which is not really asus's fault but...). The only way i've seen this running stably on an A7V was to overclock it, even then you still got random hangs that forced you to reboot. I've never been able to use it properly myself, a waste considering i've got 4 IDE buses and can only use 2, and force my segateATA-100 drive to run at 66.

The DDR boards from asus seem to vary, some people have gone though hell with them others have been fine, seems to come down to batch and place of purchase. If you get it runnign fine chances are you'll have a great board that will last, i just have had a signifigant number of bad experiences with the recently and am using either MSI or Elite boards. That particular comment was because i'd jsut got a phone call from a friend who recently built a 1.3 on the same board which had just died - not good. (also turned out to have more to do with the 250W PSU, and shitlaods of powersucking hardware but....)

Cooling....all comes down to how much $ you want to spend and how far you want to go, yea you need a 'desktop' case to really use those heatsinks but take a look @ Toms Hardware and see the difference, it can be worth it, particualry in summer/when you want to overclock.

Have you bought all this or not(obviously you have part of it but..)? If not consider investing in a aliminium case, well worth the money cooling wise.

As i said below grounding isin't as big as some people seem to think it is, i've seen people workin on nylon carpets wihtout straps in porfessional places wihtout a problem, it comes down to how handle the hardware, and what bits you touch too.

Rounded cables aren't worth the fuss, just contain and remove the head around your motherboard and you shouln't have a problem. If you do want to i advise you do it in blocks of 5 insidivual threads, cut a tiny bit at the end then rip, its far safer than cutting the whole way.

[mbpark]

Yep,

you can do that with RAID. Done it a couple times here as well

Meanwhile, I suggested SCSI for the CD-RW because of the simple fact that CD-RW is designed for SCSI, and getting an 18GB drive just for swap would not be as economical.

It was a metric of judging based on performance there, and there's more to be had by hanging devices off a SCSI bus, plus he already has the card, which has support built into Win2K if I am not mistaken . However, a faster card would be much better.

The issue here is the fact that UDMA is good for single drives, and is susceptible to other devices on the same bus, esp. in the case of CD-RW drives. I've seen too many disks turn into coasters because the drive couldn't handle heavy bus traffic, especially on MS systems.

Meanwhile, everything else sounds cool there. I'll be honest, I have an A7V with a Live! and a USB intellimouse for a reason. I'm not overly concerned with the PS/2 ports, however I know it's an issue with ASUS' implementation of the chipset. For some reason, I've been migrating everything over to USB, since it's a lot nicer for plugging things in (especially printers, mice, and PDAs), and it's got some pretty awesome driver support for above. The transfer rates are darn fine too .

Other than that, the system pictured here should outright smoke.

[jaguar]

*slaps self* i missed the SCSI card was already there.


18G for swap does seem a bit extreme but for viedo capture it makes sense, and you do want somthing fast for that. I couldn't work out whether you menat swap as in temorary storage jsut for capturing video or as in SWAP for a RAID setup, like a partity drive or somthing(yea my RAID is as weak as it sounds)) As for coasters, i havne't seen any on an Athon system (i've tried playing an intensive 3D game, copying from drive to drive AND burning without the buffer falling below 70%) as long as the source and destination devices are on seperate busses there should not be a problem. I just don't like that Promise 100 controller.

Yea mbpark - USB does rock, the only reason i use a PS/2 mouse is for gaming i can overclock the refresh rate from 20 to 200 - much smoother which counts when your trying to snipe.

[mbpark]

Jaguar,

When you run 2K, you want to move pagefile.sys to a different physical drive, on its own controller or RAID channel. On commercial servers you can just set up a RAID partition to do it.

Pagefile.sys gets hit on by Win2K more than a woman at a Linux or Amiga fest.

The reason why is because 2000 and NT like big pagefiles, and they will get huge, whether you like it or not. Just like Solaris or Linux, except that Linux's installer progs make you put one on your install whether you want to or not when you install it on a raw drive. Unless you run Slackware or Debian, in which case you can do whatever you want .

I always recommend a pagefile size at least 2x RAM (which is the metric I use on the Sun servers, and any Windows NT/2K database server [yes, Oracle owns on my NT4 box with a nice tuned installation of SP6a, much moreso than 2000 ]).

Putting that on its own channel prevents the nastiness that occurs when your c: drive gets hit. If you're doing anything, its recommended.

The issue I've just seen with anything IDE and writing fast is the fact that IDE is just not that disciplined, and SCSI is a way better multitasker.

I've had the chance to play with some serious PERC RAID configurations. I have a PII/333 at a former client's that runs SQL Server 7 Service Pack 3, and you'd think it ran on a dual processor machine with twice the RAM that Dell sells as a "database server" because I'm using dual channels, one for the database and one for the software itself. I've also got backup devices segmented on channel 3, with 64MB cache. The swap, system drives, and database are all on different partitions (4 of them at last count). I've got the DB only on RAID 1. I'm proud of the fact I tuned that PERC adapter and its NT drivers for maximum performance (and hint: download their drivers from the site and don't overclock ).

However, it smokes. As in "properly configured SCSI RAID on a PC can smoke anything IDE can and will ever do". When you configure right to have everything separate, you can seriously smack down everything else.

Here's another story about that from my day job:

My latest Oracle server is like that as well. It's a Sun E6500 with 16GB RAM and an EMC Symmetrix with several redundant FC-AL connections. It costs more than anything I would want to afford. I've got one big-ass swap partition on it (32GB), and partitions for all the standard Solaris fun things such as /usr, /opt (which in Solaris is the default install directory for all third-party packages), the / fs, and a couple of client-specific ones. We should be running 4 18GB drives in a RAID 0+1 for the pagefile partition, with 2 9GB drives for everything else .

Then there are the Oracle partitions on the Symmetrix

We've got it split across 13 partitions of its own, and have interleaving going for performance across all data files to keep the data file size low while allowing for maximum switching speed. And, it's got dedicated partitions for rollback segments and archived redo log. EMC handles all that nasty stuff like physical drive allocation.

When you start getting big, think interleaving as well .

I think it'll handle like 1,000 concurrent connections or something, depending on how the developers coded their SQL and paid attention to Roger the Apps DBA, who works from Mitch the Performance/Physical DBA (that be me), who spends most of his time tuning Oracle and database queries so that the apps don't crap themselves in production because some developers don't like using indexes or use the IN statement with non-scalar values.

At least Solaris can handle crap gracefully when used with SCSI and/or RAID. IDE even on Solaris, which is one of the few OS'es that is truly industrial-strength (up there with AIX and Tru64 UNIX), is crap under heavy loads. SCSI and Solaris have survived the Slashdot effect many times, because the whole system is more efficient.

Win2K is actually recommended to run SCSI with. Part of the reason is that Microsoft optimized the OS around the Adaptec SCSI cards. I'm a big fan of Adaptec SCSI.

However, SCSI and RAID are your friends for doing anything, since you want your system to be at maximum performance. I recommend an 18GB Cheetah and Adaptec Ultra2 adapter, with a SCSI CD-RW in there too. Need a doorstop, you can use your old IDE drive . I've got a friend with that configuration. Windows 2K Advanced Server boots in under 20 seconds from his 18GB 10K cheetah, and it's INCREDIBLE for playing games or watching DVD movies, since the system is just more responsive and uses less CPU.

Take care. Hope I didn't go on too long here.

Mitch

[jaguar]

Cool...thanks for that...Obviously i don't get to play with many setups like that on a regular basis...
So u work as DBA? wow....I've spent the last couple of week stuffing around with really, really advanced databases in that l33t M$ Access program We have to do it at school - im' bored shitless so i've been intergrating it with VB which i what were meant to do next year....

Yea i have my Linux swap on a seperate drive but i never bothered with the windows....Does seem to be the logical thing to do Slithy_Tove.. *points to mbpark* he knows what hes talking about.

I've always been a SCSI fan coz i started with macs, only used pcs for about 5 years.

I'm *hopefuly* getting a job building pretty powerful video editing machines soon which will expose me to quite alot of raid configs and high end machines which will be interesting.