Sycamore's amazing conclusion #1

[elSicomoro]

Organized religion is inherently corrupt. Discuss.

[juju]

I'd say that it's completely separated from logic. Without some sense of logic to guide religion, it's a little hard to use it as a moral guide. People just re-interpret meanings in order to justify what they want.

I'm sure someone will disagree with me, though. It's such an inflammatory topic. :)

[elSicomoro]

For the record, I had some very interesting thought streams today. This was the first of three "amazing conclusions" I had. I'll definitely expand on them...most likely tomorrow or Friday. I just wanted to throw them out here now, just to gauge reaction and opinion.

Also, take note that today was Ash Wednesday, the beginning of Lent for Christians. (Easy way to spot "devout" Catholics today: Look for those that bear the "mark.")

[Cam]

I completely agree with you, though I'm still a catholic, I really have issues with the church, to the point that I barely ever go when I'm not with the parents.

[smoothmoniker]

I'd say that it's completely separated from logic. Without some sense of logic to guide religion, it's a little hard to use it as a moral guide.

juju

Completely separated from logic? That's a bit of a broad swath.

I think a logical case can be constructed for believing in a creator God who is intelligent, powerful, just, and loving, and who is involved in the workings of humanity.

-sm

[Undertoad]

OK, make it.

[perth]

as far as organized religion goes, i agree with juju that its completely separated from logic. because lets face it, logic doesnt bring in nearly as much money as emotion.

i left organized religion long ago because of this (amongst other things). i didnt want church to entertain, i wanted it to enlighten. and i sure as shit dont need to be told who to vote for from the pulpit. i still believe, and i still consider myself a christian. but i will not finance or support a church which uses peoples emotion to make a profit. thats job belongs to hollywood and sally struthers.

my belief boils down to two things:

1. the golden rule (do unto others, blabh blah blah)
2. said best by salma hayek in dogma:

When are you people going to learn? It's not about who's right or wrong. No denomination's nailed it yet, and they never will because they're all too self-righteous to realize that it doesn't matter what you have faith in, just that you have faith. Your hearts are in the right place, but your brains need to wake up.

~james

[juju]

Originally posted by smoothmoniker
Completely separated from logic? That's a bit of a broad swath.

I think a logical case can be constructed for believing in a creator God who is intelligent, powerful, just, and loving, and who is involved in the workings of humanity.

Intelligent is probably a huge understatement. The man's supposed to be omniscient..

Anyway, it seems to me that's the whole reason faith is so important to religious folk. Without logic to fall back on, they've got to just believe on blind faith. It ain't called blind faith for nothin'.

How else can you convince people that women wearing pants is evil? Now, thankfully, lots of religious people have logic. So most of them don't believe all the really crazy stuff (dancing is evil, men shouldn't have long hair, etc.). But I really think the faith and the logic are separate entities. And I wouldn't go so far as to say the bible supports the logic. I think it's more like the logic keeps the bible in perspective.

[perth]

But I really think the faith and the logic are separate entities.

and no matter what people on either side of the argument may say, theyre mutually exclusive. if one has to try to reconcile their faith to logic, i dont feel they have that much faith in the first place. if you have to apologize for your convictions, they must need strengthening, or changed altogether.

the stories in the bible (or almost any other religious text, from what i understand) often directly defy logic, and its important, i think, to realize that whats important is not the words, but the underlying theme being communicated.. that theme, i think (at least in the new testament), is that the best way to be a christian is to be understanding of others, kind to all, and willing to give help to those that need it. and in that sense, the bible (and other religious texts) is an excellent moral guide. but as far as how its preached, well, that often leaves something to be desired.

~james

[Whit]

     Wow... This is gonna take a few...

     Syc, I'd have to say it depends on the religion. If the religion talks about the evils of money and such then yeah, to keep the church going they're going to have to work the cash. It's contradictory and thus can be called corrupt. Not all religions do that though, I doubt their was a lot of corruption in the ancient worship of gods like Pan. When they claim, "We believe we should get drunk, have an orgy and live hedonistic lives." Hmm, wouldn't corruption in such beliefs be charitable acts? So hey, as long as they don't lower themselves to care about anyone but themselves what's the problem. Just a perspective.

     Smooth, just leave us hanging why don't ya? I will say that you can make a logical argument for just about anything as long as you narrow your field of vision enough. In 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance' for instance a logical argument is made that Gravity didn't exist before Newton. Obviously false it was still a logical argument. And I'm sure we are all familiar with the magic bullet theory.

     Perth, I gotta disagree with your Selma Hayek quote. Why should I have faith? I can't come up with any reason that isn't faith based. Could you explain why I should? Just wonderin', a lot of Christians have tried to convert me and this is always the first wall. I don't have faith, they say I should but can't tell me why. Well, except for the ever-present threat of Hell. I know that you are not sponsoring Christianity per se, but I'd really appreciate some clarification on the faith thing.

     Juju, "The Man?" You sexist bastard. You think God must be male?!? Obviously your male dominant attitude is showing through. By the by, the bible doesn't say that men shouldn't have long hair, it says it's shameful. Glad to clear that up,you damn long-haired hippie.

[wolf]

Originally posted by Whit
     Juju, "The Man?" You sexist bastard. You think God must be male?!?

God has established here elsewhere his divine masculinity ...

[perth]

Originally posted by Whit
     Perth, I gotta disagree with your Selma Hayek quote. Why should I have faith? I can't come up with any reason that isn't faith based. Could you explain why I should? Just wonderin', a lot of Christians have tried to convert me and this is always the first wall. I don't have faith, they say I should but can't tell me why. Well, except for the ever-present threat of Hell. I know that you are not sponsoring Christianity per se, but I'd really appreciate some clarification on the faith thing.

think of it this way. faith is faith. faith in god, vishnu, thor, zeus; faith in your family, the goodness of mankind, or in your own ability to know right from wrong. im not asking you to have faith in god, im asking you to have faith. i dont believe there different kinds of faith.

the ability to have and express faith in whom(what)ever it is you choose is a wonderful thing. i personally choose to place my faith in god. where you place your faith is your decision.

~james

[That Guy]

Originally posted by Undertoad
OK, make it.

Mother Nature.

While we're on the subject, anyone care to guess what I gave up for Lent?

[Whit]

Posted by Perth:
think of it this way. faith is faith. faith in god, vishnu, thor, zeus; faith in your family, the goodness of mankind, or in your own ability to know right from wrong. im not asking you to have faith in god, im asking you to have faith. i dont believe there different kinds of faith.

     I assume we are working off the definition of faith as believing in something we can't prove? If so then I'd like to draw a line in the difference between expectation and faith. The difference being faith accepts that something is true and expectation accepts that it is likely. I'm moving on with this if you disagree then I'll have to go back.
     Anyway, I don't have faith in anything you mentioned. I expect that I'll choose what is right over what is wrong to the best of my knowledge and I expect that I'll often be wrong. Faith in the family went out the window awhile back, nasty situation, and now I expect that they will do good by me, but I would never count on it. I've never seen any reason to put my faith in any higher power, divine judgment or universal justice. Not outside of a Disney movie anyway. I do like that people have the ability to have faith I just never saw the point myself.
     Just to clarify, I think everything we 'know' is questionable. This years scientific facts are just as likely to be shown to be false later as the facts we've proven false in the past. I accept that my perceptions and knowledge is limited and fallible, and it doesn't bother me. So again I ask "Why have faith?"

     Oh yeah, Wolf, I know that God is male, I was just messing with Juju. Yesterday I called him a 'Prima Dona' it only seemed right to go the other way by calling him sexist today. Thanks for the clarification though.

(For those with no sense of humor: The claim that I "know" god is male in a post where I said I don't believe in any higher power was intentional.)

[perth]

I assume we are working off the definition of faith as believing in something we can't prove?

fair enough. i would generally stop with "believing in something", but neither you nor the dictionary agree with me

Anyway, I don't have faith in anything you mentioned.

it was a brief list of examples. i imagine i could sit for weeks thinking of things people put their faith in.

I expect that I'll choose what is right over what is wrong to the best of my knowledge and I expect that I'll often be wrong.

and in my eyes, the fact that you try to do whats right is whats important, not whether or not you get it right every time. thats good enough to count as faith to me. as a definition, i know it doesnt match up. but as a concept, i think it does.

I've never seen any reason to put my faith in any higher power, divine judgment or universal justice.

okay.

Just to clarify, I think everything we 'know' is questionable.

agreed.

This years scientific facts are just as likely to be shown to be false later as the facts we've proven false in the past. I except that my perceptions and knowledge is limited and fallible, and it doesn't bother me. So again I ask "Why have faith?"

because unless you accept the truth of some things youre doomed to doubt everything. which may be fine with you, but it doesnt sound like fun to me.

~james