07/24/02: You are Stupid

juju · 07-24-2002, 02:40 PM

When my mother was growing up, her parents were dirt poor and her father was an alcoholic. My grandfather was known to come home blasted drunk every night, and the whole house would always cower in fear at his return. Once, he threw my mother against the refrigerator, put a knife against her neck, and threatened her life. Another time, her and her sister asked him for money, and he gave them a lot. They were ecstatic and spent it all. Later, they found out that he had given them the families grocery money and was too drunk to realize it (or care). They had to live on scraps until the next pay period.

My mother tells me that of all the terrible things that he did to the family, calling her stupid was the most psychologically damaging. This is surprising to me, because i'd've thought that things like creating an environment of constant fear, or beating the hell out of her would rank a little higher up there.

When my wife and I were first getting to know each other, I learned that she had a low self-esteem and thought she was stupid. I also learned that her father made a sport of calling her stupid. Now, she's come a long way since meeting me, as i've indoctrinated her with my self-confidence philosophy of life. But it's a struggle. It's amazing to me that even though she knows logically that she is smart, she still thinks she's stupid because her father and brothers teased her. It's like it cements in people's brains when they're young, and then won't come out without considerable effort.

Like I said in another post, kids generally believe what they're told. My mother believed her father, and my wife believed her father. Even after she became an adult, she still thought that she was stupid and ugly. This caused her to become depressed, have no self-image and have very little self-confidence.

The insidiousness of having no self-confidence can not be overstated. How a person views himself affects everything in his life, including relationships, success in life, and happiness in general. If life were a building, self-confidence would be the foundation. Before I met my wife, I thought it was just my mom. But now I see that it's clearly not just her -- lots of people have the same problem.

And now, I have a problem. When I go to my in-laws' house, I see it happening all over again. When I see this happening, I feel compelled to speak up, to chastise the parents and try to make them see how what they're doing is wrong. The only problem is, it's not my place to say so, especially since I don't have kids of my own. I'd be "one of those people" who are always criticizing how other people parent their kids. It's my general feeling that people like that are despised, since they usually don't know what they're talking about. If I spoke up, i'd risk them getting pissed at me. But if I don't speak up, the kids might hate themselves when they're 30.

There's another thing I wonder about. Both the cases I know of were women. What is the effect on guys, I wonder? My father called me stupid, and I was depressed and hated myself for all of my childhood. It was only until I broke 20 that I was able to pull myself out of that hole. But I never connected that to him thinking I was stupid. I like to think that I got over the insults because i'm a guy and that words don't bother me, and that the depression was just from a chemical imbalance. But is it?

I have already decided to just not say anything, as it's just not my place. But I feel bad about this, because I feel pretty confident of what the effects will be. What do you folks think?

07-24-2002, 03:27 PM

I think you're a fucking sissy for not doing the right thing and speaking up. You might as well be dead already, because your life has no value if you can't stand up for what's right. Nevermind the fact that one of your young relatives may end up commiting suicide because of their low self esteem - you don't want people to be pissed off at you.

All this coming from a guy who swears that he loves to argue just for the hell of it (and, indeed, sees no trouble with pushing my buttons - even though if he saw me in real life, he would leave well enough alone).

What I see is a little boy who can't be strong in the real world. He was picked on and has a far-reaching inferiority complex. He takes this out on those he meets online because, simply put, we're not going to kick his ass from a thousand miles away. But, of course, he avoids real-life conflict at all costs. Unless its his wife, whom he knows he can pick on - mainly because he knows that she has such low self esteem that she would never leave him.

Grow some fucking balls and stand up for what's right, not what's most comfortable. I leave you with this quote:

What's right is not always popular. What's popular is not always right.

juju · 07-24-2002, 04:43 PM

Hmm.. are you pissed off because I made fun of your post in the "well regulated militia" thread? I was only joking, you know. My apologies if I offended you.

I do like to argue just for the hell of it, but not if it means it's really going to piss someone off. I'd prefer it if the other person enjoyed the arguing as well. Anyway, I don't think that case applies here, as i'm not actively looking for an argument.

I don't pick on my wife. I try to get her to see that she's a great and beautiful person. I know that you're not supposed to try to change a person, but this is the one thing that I can't resist doing. For the most part she's come a very long way. I think it's fair to say she has high self-esteem today.

I did have low self-esteem as a child, but after many years of introspection and growing, i've gotten over it. I'm extremly self-confident today.

I do like to stand up for what I believe in. But I don't want to do this without really thinking about it first. That's why I posted this here.. to get people's opinion on it before I do something really stupid. That's the thing about standing up for what you believe in -- sometimes you're wrong. And if you are, you've just made a huge ass out of yourself. I don't have kids, and I've only been considering this subject for a few days. Therefore, I could be wrong. I think i'm right, though, and if enough people say, "Yeah, that exact same thing happened to my sister/brother/cousin", i'd consider that good evidence to support my belief.

I shouldn't have said that i'd already made up my mind. I'm still deciding, really. I've made my mind up several different ways several times since i've starting thinking about it. I always think I know whether or not i'll say something at any given point, but I keep changing my mind.

07-24-2002, 04:53 PM

It didn't at all piss me off. Stupid ABE and PV-WAVE pissed me off.

I noted your wife because you've stated before that you argue with her, just for the hell of it, and it gets on her nerves.

juju · 07-24-2002, 05:03 PM

I don't think I said that it gets on her nerves. If I find that the other person isn't willing, then I usually back off. Sometimes I don't know they're not willing, though.

Who are ABE and PV-WAVE?

07-24-2002, 05:12 PM

http://www.integ.com/ABE.HTM

http://www.vni.com/products/wave/index.html

Software that I am integrating into the Defense Information Infrastructure Common Operating Environment for the US Army. The project is horribly mismanaged and this is the software I have to work on (right now) for this horribly mismanaged project. I cannot describe how horribly mismanaged this project is. What I can tell you is that it's horribly mismanaged. And I am therefore hating ABE, PV-WAVE and the first three days of each week (during which I am to work on this horribly mismanaged project).

Undertoad · 07-24-2002, 05:22 PM

Well, I think you're doing the right thing, because undoubtedly were you to try to intervene, you'd be told how it's none of your business, which would in turn cause who knows how many problems. The only guaranteed good approach is to be a good example.

I don't stick in my two cents because nobody wants to hear it. Everybody believes that they alone have all the answers. Besides, maybe they're right; maybe they've worked it all out, and I'm the moron who's lagging behind.

elSicomoro · 07-24-2002, 05:42 PM

Juju, consider yourself blessed...I'm bestowing post #2000 to your thread. ;)

Now then, IMO, the answer is simple. You need to express your concerns to your wife, and what you want to do about it. Be blunt. I don't know your wife, but I imagine she might get defensive about it at first, so be gentle as well.

In the end, you have to make a split-second decision if the situation arises again. Best scenario of course is for HER to take 'em on. You can goad her on all you want, but she has to take the ball and run with it. But if the situation comes up again, and you feel a need to speak up, do so...just be tactful.

If my father-in-law suddenly lost his mind and called Rho stupid, I'd simply say, "Look you old bastard, don't make me beat you senseless with the Baltimore Sun. You know, Rho and I could use a nice remodeled home now instead of 10 years down the line." Then I would snarl and probably foam at the mouth for good measure...maybe kick over the living room table for added effect.

Okay, not really. Rho would probably do it first. ;) Seriously, Rho probably wouldn't think twice to tell them "fuck you." But I wouldn't be afraid to speak up to them if she didn't. It all depends on the situation in the end.

DISCLAIMER: Sycamore is not a psychologist, but he plays one on The Cellar. ;)

warch · 07-24-2002, 06:06 PM

This is not an unfamiliar scenario to me, but with adults, rather than kids. You have the whole inlaw-parent thang going on too. And it can be really shitty. And they will not change- that would require the team of experts working around the clock- specialists from Vienna. The best thing that my spouse and I have come up with, particularly when either of us is a target, is the "reality check look". When some crazy-ass mean thing is said, you know there is someone else who heard it and knows its crazy ass. But that is usually followed with getting quickly out of there. I think the best spousal support happens on your own turf. Its a reality outside.

I have an older brother who is just plain ugly mean with a poison tongue. He mocks, insults, picks fights. I'm sure there are many clear psychological reasons why he behaves the way he does, insecurity, jealousy, etc. but I refuse to be his target anymore and I refuse to cut him slack. My mom is big on getting me to make nice to him, "you know how guys are..He's joking around..." Nope. this is way beyond a joke, and the gender excuse is crap. He also picks on my spouse to get at me, which really pisses me off. The urge is to fight- its that attention he wants, but we've decided he's not worth any energy. We just try not to "play", maybe he'll see how sad he is or maybe not. Man its hard. At this point we will do all possible to just avoid him. As you can see this is an ongoing struggle, you know, to be the grownup.

07-24-2002, 02:40 PM	#1
juju no one of consequence Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Arkansas Posts: 2,839	07/24/02: You are Stupid When my mother was growing up, her parents were dirt poor and her father was an alcoholic. My grandfather was known to come home blasted drunk every night, and the whole house would always cower in fear at his return. Once, he threw my mother against the refrigerator, put a knife against her neck, and threatened her life. Another time, her and her sister asked him for money, and he gave them a lot. They were ecstatic and spent it all. Later, they found out that he had given them the families grocery money and was too drunk to realize it (or care). They had to live on scraps until the next pay period. My mother tells me that of all the terrible things that he did to the family, calling her stupid was the most psychologically damaging. This is surprising to me, because i'd've thought that things like creating an environment of constant fear, or beating the hell out of her would rank a little higher up there. When my wife and I were first getting to know each other, I learned that she had a low self-esteem and thought she was stupid. I also learned that her father made a sport of calling her stupid. Now, she's come a long way since meeting me, as i've indoctrinated her with my self-confidence philosophy of life. But it's a struggle. It's amazing to me that even though she knows logically that she is smart, she still thinks she's stupid because her father and brothers teased her. It's like it cements in people's brains when they're young, and then won't come out without considerable effort. Like I said in another post, kids generally believe what they're told. My mother believed her father, and my wife believed her father. Even after she became an adult, she still thought that she was stupid and ugly. This caused her to become depressed, have no self-image and have very little self-confidence. The insidiousness of having no self-confidence can not be overstated. How a person views himself affects everything in his life, including relationships, success in life, and happiness in general. If life were a building, self-confidence would be the foundation. Before I met my wife, I thought it was just my mom. But now I see that it's clearly not just her -- lots of people have the same problem. And now, I have a problem. When I go to my in-laws' house, I see it happening all over again. When I see this happening, I feel compelled to speak up, to chastise the parents and try to make them see how what they're doing is wrong. The only problem is, it's not my place to say so, especially since I don't have kids of my own. I'd be "one of those people" who are always criticizing how other people parent their kids. It's my general feeling that people like that are despised, since they usually don't know what they're talking about. If I spoke up, i'd risk them getting pissed at me. But if I don't speak up, the kids might hate themselves when they're 30. There's another thing I wonder about. Both the cases I know of were women. What is the effect on guys, I wonder? My father called me stupid, and I was depressed and hated myself for all of my childhood. It was only until I broke 20 that I was able to pull myself out of that hole. But I never connected that to him thinking I was stupid. I like to think that I got over the insults because i'm a guy and that words don't bother me, and that the depression was just from a chemical imbalance. But is it? I have already decided to just not say anything, as it's just not my place. But I feel bad about this, because I feel pretty confident of what the effects will be. What do you folks think? Last edited by juju; 07-24-2002 at 06:41 PM.

07-24-2002, 04:43 PM	#3
juju no one of consequence Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Arkansas Posts: 2,839	Hmm.. are you pissed off because I made fun of your post in the "well regulated militia" thread? I was only joking, you know. My apologies if I offended you. I do like to argue just for the hell of it, but not if it means it's really going to piss someone off. I'd prefer it if the other person enjoyed the arguing as well. Anyway, I don't think that case applies here, as i'm not actively looking for an argument. I don't pick on my wife. I try to get her to see that she's a great and beautiful person. I know that you're not supposed to try to change a person, but this is the one thing that I can't resist doing. For the most part she's come a very long way. I think it's fair to say she has high self-esteem today. I did have low self-esteem as a child, but after many years of introspection and growing, i've gotten over it. I'm extremly self-confident today. I do like to stand up for what I believe in. But I don't want to do this without really thinking about it first. That's why I posted this here.. to get people's opinion on it before I do something really stupid. That's the thing about standing up for what you believe in -- sometimes you're wrong. And if you are, you've just made a huge ass out of yourself. I don't have kids, and I've only been considering this subject for a few days. Therefore, I could be wrong. I think i'm right, though, and if enough people say, "Yeah, that exact same thing happened to my sister/brother/cousin", i'd consider that good evidence to support my belief. I shouldn't have said that i'd already made up my mind. I'm still deciding, really. I've made my mind up several different ways several times since i've starting thinking about it. I always think I know whether or not i'll say something at any given point, but I keep changing my mind. Last edited by juju; 07-24-2002 at 04:48 PM.

07-24-2002, 05:42 PM	#8
elSicomoro Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 12,486	Juju, consider yourself blessed...I'm bestowing post #2000 to your thread. ;) Now then, IMO, the answer is simple. You need to express your concerns to your wife, and what you want to do about it. Be blunt. I don't know your wife, but I imagine she might get defensive about it at first, so be gentle as well. In the end, you have to make a split-second decision if the situation arises again. Best scenario of course is for HER to take 'em on. You can goad her on all you want, but she has to take the ball and run with it. But if the situation comes up again, and you feel a need to speak up, do so...just be tactful. If my father-in-law suddenly lost his mind and called Rho stupid, I'd simply say, "Look you old bastard, don't make me beat you senseless with the Baltimore Sun. You know, Rho and I could use a nice remodeled home now instead of 10 years down the line." Then I would snarl and probably foam at the mouth for good measure...maybe kick over the living room table for added effect. Okay, not really. Rho would probably do it first. ;) Seriously, Rho probably wouldn't think twice to tell them "fuck you." But I wouldn't be afraid to speak up to them if she didn't. It all depends on the situation in the end. DISCLAIMER: Sycamore is not a psychologist, but he plays one on The Cellar. ;) Last edited by elSicomoro; 07-24-2002 at 05:44 PM.

07-24-2002, 03:27 PM	#2
dave Guest Posts: n/a	I think you're a fucking sissy for not doing the right thing and speaking up. You might as well be dead already, because your life has no value if you can't stand up for what's right. Nevermind the fact that one of your young relatives may end up commiting suicide because of their low self esteem - you don't want people to be pissed off at you. All this coming from a guy who swears that he loves to argue just for the hell of it (and, indeed, sees no trouble with pushing my buttons - even though if he saw me in real life, he would leave well enough alone). What I see is a little boy who can't be strong in the real world. He was picked on and has a far-reaching inferiority complex. He takes this out on those he meets online because, simply put, we're not going to kick his ass from a thousand miles away. But, of course, he avoids real-life conflict at all costs. Unless its his wife, whom he knows he can pick on - mainly because he knows that she has such low self esteem that she would never leave him. Grow some fucking balls and stand up for what's right, not what's most comfortable. I leave you with this quote: What's right is not always popular. What's popular is not always right.

07-24-2002, 04:53 PM	#4
dave Guest Posts: n/a	It didn't at all piss me off. Stupid ABE and PV-WAVE pissed me off. I noted your wife because you've stated before that you argue with her, just for the hell of it, and it gets on her nerves.

07-24-2002, 05:03 PM	#5
juju no one of consequence Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Arkansas Posts: 2,839	I don't think I said that it gets on her nerves. If I find that the other person isn't willing, then I usually back off. Sometimes I don't know they're not willing, though. Who are ABE and PV-WAVE?

07-24-2002, 05:12 PM	#6
dave Guest Posts: n/a	http://www.integ.com/ABE.HTM http://www.vni.com/products/wave/index.html Software that I am integrating into the Defense Information Infrastructure Common Operating Environment for the US Army. The project is horribly mismanaged and this is the software I have to work on (right now) for this horribly mismanaged project. I cannot describe how horribly mismanaged this project is. What I can tell you is that it's horribly mismanaged. And I am therefore hating ABE, PV-WAVE and the first three days of each week (during which I am to work on this horribly mismanaged project).

07-24-2002, 05:22 PM	#7
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Well, I think you're doing the right thing, because undoubtedly were you to try to intervene, you'd be told how it's none of your business, which would in turn cause who knows how many problems. The only guaranteed good approach is to be a good example. I don't stick in my two cents because nobody wants to hear it. Everybody believes that they alone have all the answers. Besides, maybe they're right; maybe they've worked it all out, and I'm the moron who's lagging behind.

07-24-2002, 06:06 PM	#9
warch lurkin old school Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,796	This is not an unfamiliar scenario to me, but with adults, rather than kids. You have the whole inlaw-parent thang going on too. And it can be really shitty. And they will not change- that would require the team of experts working around the clock- specialists from Vienna. The best thing that my spouse and I have come up with, particularly when either of us is a target, is the "reality check look". When some crazy-ass mean thing is said, you know there is someone else who heard it and knows its crazy ass. But that is usually followed with getting quickly out of there. I think the best spousal support happens on your own turf. Its a reality outside. I have an older brother who is just plain ugly mean with a poison tongue. He mocks, insults, picks fights. I'm sure there are many clear psychological reasons why he behaves the way he does, insecurity, jealousy, etc. but I refuse to be his target anymore and I refuse to cut him slack. My mom is big on getting me to make nice to him, "you know how guys are..He's joking around..." Nope. this is way beyond a joke, and the gender excuse is crap. He also picks on my spouse to get at me, which really pisses me off. The urge is to fight- its that attention he wants, but we've decided he's not worth any energy. We just try not to "play", maybe he'll see how sad he is or maybe not. Man its hard. At this point we will do all possible to just avoid him. As you can see this is an ongoing struggle, you know, to be the grownup.

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