Homosexuality: Choice or Chance?

BigV · 10-05-2006, 05:57 PM

Mark Foley, R-Fl, recently made the news by resigning from Congress*. This was a big story, and there were several peripheral facts that have come to light in the course of the national discussion, including the fact, indeed, the revelation that he is gay.

I have heard many people object to homosexuality, and one prominent complaint is that it is a poor *choice*, and as such an indicator of immorality, or weakness. As though the person has decided to be gay, consciously chosen all that goes along with such a choice. As though someone could make a different choice.

I do not believe that homosexuality is a choice. I believe that it is far, far deeper than that, as deep as my heterosexuality. I'm not certain as to the relative balance between nature and nurture, but I feel it's defined long before I am capable of making an informed choice, likely before I am conscious at all.

But I want to ask those readers that do think it's a choice, or controllable, why would Mark Foley have chosen to be gay, given these circumstances.

* I do not believe that this story has diddly squat to do with him being gay. Or an alcoholic. Or having been molested. Or that the sun was in his eyes. Or that the dog ate his homework. All such excuses are irrelevant, true or otherwise.

JayMcGee · 10-05-2006, 06:18 PM

I know of two sets of sisters (not twins) who are all gay. Both sets of parents are apparantly hetero....... which seems to rule out nurture.

Clodfobble · 10-05-2006, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigV

As though the person has decided to be gay, consciously chosen all that goes along with such a choice.

For the record, no, I absolutely do not believe being gay is a choice. I believe it is a combination of genetic predisposition combined with environmental triggers in the first few years of life.

However, the argument quoted above always irks me. There are tons of people who actively choose to be all sorts of outcasts. Martyrdom is an undeniable human trait. The argument that if it were a choice, obviously no one would choose it because of the difficulties such a choice would cause, is just silly.

10-05-2006, 08:14 PM

I agree with the others who say its probably part genetic and part nurture. I don't think many people choose to be gay out of a sense of martyrdom. A few might, I suppose, but there's other, easier ways of being a martyr, if that's what you want to be. I have a friend who is lesbian who was raised to be a very strict Mormon. I don't know if the Mormon Church has eased up any on gays, but when my friend was a young girl, the Mormons sent gays straight to hell. My friend used to pray every night for God to take her gayness away. She even briefly married in the attempt to be straight. But she is what she is, and she ultimately left both the straight life and the Mormon Church behind her and finally came out as a lesbian.

My friend also has a brother who is gay and a sister who is not. Inheritance is not all simple Mendialian genetics. We can't choose our genes or upbringing. If we could, everyone would be nearly perfect, wouldn't we?

morethanpretty · 10-05-2006, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayMcGee

I know of two sets of sisters (not twins) who are all gay. Both sets of parents are apparantly hetero....... which seems to rule out nurture.

I know a woman who says she was raised by gay men, she is lesbian. Sounds like nurture to me...
I think homosexuality is just an anomoly that happens, the causes and pattern of it are just so random and complex there might not be a way us to ever understand how or why it manifests. And I really think that that is besides the point. Homosexuals are different then heterosexuals, but caucasians are different then blacks, persians are different then arabians, men are different then women, christians are different then zorastrians...we need to accept our differences and embrace others for who they are.

I think it is interesting that many child molestors have a similar story of molestation when they were the age of their victims.

Quote:

FORMER US congressman Mark Foley, who has resigned in disgrace after revelations of compromising messages to young boys, was molested as a teenager, his lawyer said.

David Roth said yesterday that Mr Foley had been molested by a clergyman and had "kept the shame to himself" until now.

Ibby · 10-05-2006, 08:14 PM

It's no more a choice than heterosexuality is.

footfootfoot · 10-05-2006, 08:39 PM

Madman · 10-05-2006, 08:52 PM

A can of worms has been opened and it will overflow.

Homosexuality - Choice or just happened to be born that way (however anyone wants to phrase it)?

I believe it is a choice.

Undertoad · 10-05-2006, 08:54 PM

Recent research suggests that younger brothers of brothers are more likely to be gay. The first male pregnancy sets up something in the womb, they say, which the second brother gets a dose of during development.

bluecuracao · 10-05-2006, 08:55 PM

Then Madman, please answer the question...

Quote:

But I want to ask those readers that do think it's a choice, or controllable, why would Mark Foley have chosen to be gay, given these circumstances.

footfootfoot · 10-05-2006, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Recent research suggests that younger brothers of brothers are more likely to be gay. The first male pregnancy sets up something in the womb, they say, which the second brother gets a dose of during development.

I remember reading something similar to that in a human development book. At a certain point in gestation the fetus aquires its sexual orientation and at another point it aquires its gender expression. Depending on the levels of certain hormones at those times the fetus will be either male attracted or female attracted and then at a later development stage express as femine or masculine.

presumably how you can have effeminate straight men, very macho/butch gay men, lipstick lesbians and diesel dykes, straight tomboys, etc.

According to the book it all has to do with what is happening hormonally during gestation. Sorry, I don't remember the title I have a bad habit of picking up things and reading them from the middle out.

Could be a bunch of shit too, I doubt I made it as far as the footnotes.

footfootfoot · 10-05-2006, 09:45 PM

And then it may be a choice; didn't mr.noodle elect to be gay for the whole cellar, albeit fluid-less?

9th Engineer · 10-05-2006, 11:29 PM

Since sexual attaction is mostly phermonal, sexual preference is almost certainly based largly on the subconcious interpretations of these chemical signals. This would suggest that it is entirely genetics but there are other cases where we can get reprogrammed at different stages of life. Whatever it is seems to almost always take effect before full sexual maturity. I've read about animals that exhibit homosexual behaviour under certain population conditions as a control factor, sort of like having a reproductive handbreak that can be triggered through chemical signals. I'm convinced this plays at least some role in human homosexuality. The difference with humans is that we have an amazing ability to almost reprogram ourselves under certain conditions of intense emotion or stress. Perhaps this is also a factor we attribute to nurture?
Let me throw this out there. Depending on the type of chemical signals involved I'm almost certain we can manipulate them to produce either outcome in an already straight or gay individual. What if people found out they can control the chemistry that controls them?

Sundae · 10-06-2006, 06:17 AM

I just can't understand the idea that homosexuality is a decadent choice, and anyone with a weak moral fibre can be led easily into it (not suggested in this thread, but an opinion I have heard many times).

When advertisers want you to change from one brand of cola to another they pay millions, hire pop stars, use exotic locations and thumping soundtracks.

But if you tell little Jimmy that Colin and Justin live together because they love eachother just like Mummy and Daddy do, he'll grow up wanting another man's cock up his arse.

I say apply the standards posted by Undertoad:

Quote:

Then, when it comes to determining your sexual situation there are sorta like three "levels".

1 You think about it
2 You fantasize about it
3 You do it

If it floats your boat the chances are it's a natural urge, and in the case of homosexuality, one that does no harm to other people.

Griff · 10-06-2006, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by footfootfoot

And then it may be a choice; didn't mr.noodle elect to be gay for the whole cellar, albeit fluid-less?

And we appreciated his fluidless gesture.

Instinctively, I'd say a more nature than nurture, but in case nobody noticed, folks we're complicated.

10-05-2006, 05:57 PM	#1
BigV Goon Squad Leader Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Seattle Posts: 27,063	Homosexuality: Choice or Chance? Mark Foley, R-Fl, recently made the news by resigning from Congress. This was a big story, and there were several peripheral facts that have come to light in the course of the national discussion, including the fact, indeed, the revelation that he is gay. I have heard many people object to homosexuality, and one prominent complaint is that it is a poor choice, and as such an indicator of immorality, or weakness. As though the person has decided to be gay, consciously chosen all that goes along with such a choice. As though someone could make a different choice. I do not believe that homosexuality is a choice. I believe that it is far, far deeper than that, as deep as my heterosexuality. I'm not certain as to the relative balance between nature and nurture, but I feel it's defined long before I am capable of making an informed choice, likely before I am conscious at all. But I want to ask those readers that do think it's a choice, or controllable, why would Mark Foley have chosen to be gay, given these circumstances. I do not believe that this story has diddly squat to do with him being gay. Or an alcoholic. Or having been molested. Or that the sun was in his eyes. Or that the dog ate his homework. All such excuses are irrelevant, true or otherwise. __________________ Be Just and Fear Not.

10-05-2006, 06:18 PM	#2
JayMcGee Cardigan-wearing man Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Much Binding In The Marsh Posts: 1,082	I know of two sets of sisters (not twins) who are all gay. Both sets of parents are apparantly hetero....... which seems to rule out nurture. __________________ I like wearing cardigans...... my current favourite is an orange cable-knit with real leatherette buttons.

10-05-2006, 08:14 PM	#6
Ibby erika Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: "the high up north" Posts: 6,127	It's no more a choice than heterosexuality is. __________________ not really back, you didn't see me, i was never here shhhhhh

10-05-2006, 08:39 PM	#7
footfootfoot To shreds, you say? Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: in the house and on the street-how many, many feet we meet! Posts: 18,449	__________________ The internet is a hateful stew of vomit you can never take completely seriously. - Her Fobs

10-05-2006, 09:45 PM	#12
footfootfoot To shreds, you say? Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: in the house and on the street-how many, many feet we meet! Posts: 18,449	And then it may be a choice; didn't mr.noodle elect to be gay for the whole cellar, albeit fluid-less? __________________ The internet is a hateful stew of vomit you can never take completely seriously. - Her Fobs

10-05-2006, 08:14 PM	#4
marichiko Guest Posts: n/a	I agree with the others who say its probably part genetic and part nurture. I don't think many people choose to be gay out of a sense of martyrdom. A few might, I suppose, but there's other, easier ways of being a martyr, if that's what you want to be. I have a friend who is lesbian who was raised to be a very strict Mormon. I don't know if the Mormon Church has eased up any on gays, but when my friend was a young girl, the Mormons sent gays straight to hell. My friend used to pray every night for God to take her gayness away. She even briefly married in the attempt to be straight. But she is what she is, and she ultimately left both the straight life and the Mormon Church behind her and finally came out as a lesbian. My friend also has a brother who is gay and a sister who is not. Inheritance is not all simple Mendialian genetics. We can't choose our genes or upbringing. If we could, everyone would be nearly perfect, wouldn't we?

10-05-2006, 08:52 PM	#8
Madman has left the building. Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 455	A can of worms has been opened and it will overflow. Homosexuality - Choice or just happened to be born that way (however anyone wants to phrase it)? I believe it is a choice.

10-05-2006, 08:54 PM	#9
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Recent research suggests that younger brothers of brothers are more likely to be gay. The first male pregnancy sets up something in the womb, they say, which the second brother gets a dose of during development.

10-05-2006, 11:29 PM	#13
9th Engineer Bioengineer and aspiring lawer Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 872	Since sexual attaction is mostly phermonal, sexual preference is almost certainly based largly on the subconcious interpretations of these chemical signals. This would suggest that it is entirely genetics but there are other cases where we can get reprogrammed at different stages of life. Whatever it is seems to almost always take effect before full sexual maturity. I've read about animals that exhibit homosexual behaviour under certain population conditions as a control factor, sort of like having a reproductive handbreak that can be triggered through chemical signals. I'm convinced this plays at least some role in human homosexuality. The difference with humans is that we have an amazing ability to almost reprogram ourselves under certain conditions of intense emotion or stress. Perhaps this is also a factor we attribute to nurture? Let me throw this out there. Depending on the type of chemical signals involved I'm almost certain we can manipulate them to produce either outcome in an already straight or gay individual. What if people found out they can control the chemistry that controls them? __________________ The most valuable renewable resource is stupidity.

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