Today Russia, tomorrow the UK?

[lookout123]

You just have to love the results of letting folks stroll on in with their request for asylum. I don't know this guy, his politics, or the whole situation. I do know his comments mark him as an A+ asshat in my eyes.

This is not sarcasm or mean spirited, but a sincere question. dana and jaguar - if a school full of children and other innocents is taken hostage, will you be as quick to tell us that we don't understand the full complexity of the back story? or will you step up and condemn them as the animals they are?



Cleric condones methods

[bluesdave]

In an interview with The Sunday Telegraph, Mr Mohammed said: "If an Iraqi Muslim carried out an attack like that in Britain, it would be justified because Britain has carried out acts of terrorism in Iraq.

"As long as the Iraqi did not deliberately kill women and children, and they were killed in the crossfire, that would be okay."

Lookout, I bet Jag and Dana reply with condemnations of these comments, but then proceed to do a 180 and tell us how badly treated Mr Mohammed has been through his life, and that we should sympathise with him.

I was, and still am, opposed to the war in Iraq, but if any misguided Muslims actually take Mr Mohammed's advice, and act upon it, I would condemn them (and their supporters), just as fiercely as the hostage takers in Beslan.

The guy is obviously after publicity, and said something extreme in order to provoke a reaction, but the trouble is that some idiot(s) might actually listen to him.

[xoxoxoBruce]

The father of seven came to Britain in 1985 after being deported from Saudi Arabia because of his membership of a banned group. He has since been given leave by the Home Office to remain in Britain for five years but the Government is reviewing his status.

2004 - 1985 = 19 years. 5 Years??? Strange system.

[jaguar]

ah fuck the both of you. For a start, lookout, the chechen situation is entirely different to a hypothetical event that happens in the UK, if with your rather myopic vision you should be able to see that. The thing you don't seem to fucking get, either of you, is the difference between understanding and feeling their actions are just. I get why they took a school full of hostages, I don't think it's right or just, I never have said and maybe if I say it enough times you'll get it though your thick skulls that there is a significant difference in meaning. The thing is I honestly don't give much of a fuck about the morality of these things, when rubber hits road any sense of morality goes out the window on both sides, it's a nonissue. What I'm interested in is the why and how, solve those and you'll stop it happening, far more constructive that fawning over the dead and hollow condemnation.

It's interesting, particularly considering you've read that uni/multipolar article that you don't see what happened. For fucking the west has fucked with governments and people with impudy, with the exception of a couple of groups like the IRA it's been with zero risk to the homeland. This particular brand of Islamic fundamentalism has acted as a homing beacon to all sorts of pissed off types, some legitimate in basis (Chechnya, Saudi Arabia), some not (Spain, Australia). It's become a source of power in and of itself. It's religious extremity makes it both impossible to negotiate with and difficult to eradicate. A careful, planned, nuanced strategy executed by major European nations and the US could bring it under control in a decade or two, this war on terror shit is like kicking a hornet's nest then complaining when you get stung. If a group does decide to take over a school it'd be no loss to humanity if they all end up full of enough lead to use their dicks as pencils but it's not going to stop it happening again.

Gung ho 'human fillth waste the sandniggers' type shit got us here, the way out is far more delicate and requires patience and tolerance. React to attacks in a way that reduces the chances of them happening again, not sate the bloodlust of the general populace. Invading Afghanistan was the right idea, Iraq was not. Clearly the chances of that sinking in are pretty low. This is where democracy fails, the strategy that will bring this to an end will never be accepted by a populace that just can't fucking understand what is going on.

If a school full of children is taken hostage in the UK my first question is what the fuck are the police doing, they seem to be keen enough to curtail rights, if they can't stop attacks they should drop the fucking pretense and at least let the rest of us avoid living in 1984.

Let's have some fun, should this guy be allowed to say this stuff? Personally I'm not sure, this is where free speech meets anti-hate legislation, something I tend to dislike. Does this guy carry any weight? Hard to tell. Will he convince anyone to take up arms in the UK? I doubt it, at least not like this. If he is in other ways I'm sure we'll see pics of him being picked up by a team of MP5 wielding UK's finest soon enough.

[Griff]

If he's not a citizen he should be deported. Jag hits the crux of the issue. There is a differance between understanding why people do evil and condoning it. George Bush committed a similar evil using the camoflage of state legitamacy. Many folks here condone it and I understand the misplaced faith. We don't want Americans dying for illegitamit purposes so we try to tell ourselves that lives aren't being thrown away in vain and worse for the service of evil. I do believe that Christianity is superior to Islam, but I don't believe George is a Christian.

[elSicomoro]

Originally Posted by Griff

I do believe that Christianity is superior to Islam

Why?

[jaguar]

I think he means in a pragmatic modern 'which does more harm' sense than a theological one. At least I hope so. Not sure I agree on either.

[Catwoman]

Originally Posted by Griff

I do believe that Christianity is superior to Islam

Originally Posted by sycamore

Why?

Because Griff is a Christian? Because the suicide bomber who thinks Islam is 'superior' to Christianity is a Muslim? Because the fanaticist Protestant train bomber believes Catholicism to be inferior?

Jag is right in his condemnation of religious extremism. For as long as these militant purveyors of theocratic bullshit exist this 'war on terror' will never end. Because terror is not the issue. Religious intolerance is. Terror is merely a voice for their prejudice.

I have never been religious for that very reason. Apart from obvious fallibility issues anyone of some intelligence will understand, it causes such unecessary conflict - and no matter the religion. War and terror is not unique to Islam. Western (Christian) governments have been terrorising dissidents since the invention of the wheel. And all because 'my god is better than yours'.

With any high profile (or otherwise) terrorist situation, understanding is called for. Not the kind of caring, empathetic understanding you think we mean, lookout, but true understanding and knowledge that provides us with a backbone for discussion and a point to resolve. An event such as this, or any militant action, does not stand alone. You need to understand the motivation, purpose and reason in order to procure a logical response. Maybe then our underhanded propogandic war-hungry 'civilisation' will start to make some progress.

[jaguar]

Welcome back! How was your trip?

[Catwoman]

Thanks! Won't go into detail to avoid a thorough threadjacking... will put together something Bill Bryson-esque when I get chance. But - in a word - fucking fantastic. Good to see you've been fighting the latin corner in the meantime.

[jaguar]

Killing a week or so in Switzerland before I'm back off to the UK, mostly been too busy to post here while you were galavanting around the country I'll look forward to the writeup.

No, back on topic. I don't think Griff is Christian, I could be wrong. Incidentally the wheel itself was a integral part of one of the Inquisition's more ingenious torture techniques. I don't think this guy is much worse than the 'we need Israel to become whole again at any cost to start the coming of the apocalypse and rapture' types which seem to occupy parts of the US.

[Catwoman]

Griff - if Christian you are not, my apologies. My point was merely to illustrate the absurdity of one religion claiming superiority over another. They're all just as fucked as each other.

'Killing a week' - that's an odd phrase isn't it, to kill time. Personally I don't have enough of the stuff, especially now I'm back in advertising la la land.

[elSicomoro]

Originally Posted by jaguar

I don't think Griff is Christian, I could be wrong.

He is a Christian...he's Catholic.

[elSicomoro]

Originally Posted by Catwoman

Griff - if Christian you are not, my apologies.

Who are you? Yoda?

[xoxoxoBruce]

The thing is I honestly don't give much of a fuck about the morality of these things, when rubber hits road any sense of morality goes out the window on both sides, it's a nonissue. What I'm interested in is the why and how, solve those and you'll stop it happening, far more constructive that fawning over the dead and hollow condemnation.

I believe that. You've consistantly displayed more concern for the interaction of political and mercantile forces than for people.

An event such as this, or any militant action, does not stand alone. You need to understand the motivation, purpose and reason in order to procure a logical response. Maybe then our underhanded propogandic war-hungry 'civilisation' will start to make some progress.

Yes, but remember Occam's razor. Don't make it more complicated than it is.
I’m far from an authority on any of this stuff but I have a gut feeling that won’t go away. The profiles of the “Islamic Terrorists” are all over the socio-economic map. Some come from places that the local pastime is counting sand pebbles and some come from major cities. Rich or poor, educated or ignorant, married or single and young or old (relatively). The common thread seems to be Islam. Even though the Islamics claim that’s not the way of Mohammed, there has not been a hue and cry, against the terrorists. So unless there is some reason(s), that makes each of the terrorist’s personal lives suck so badly, they will do anything to escape, it still points to Islam.