Blackout in your families?

Billy · 08-15-2003, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Aug. 15 — The largest blackout in U.S. history slowly receded early Friday, with power returning in fits and starts throughout the Northeast and Midwest regions. Electricity also began returning to eastern Canada as officials on both sides of the border struggled to understand what had caused the power system to fail, and more importantly, why the disruption spread so rapidly and across such a wide area, cutting electricity to an estimated 20 million people.

I am afraid if you can use the computers to surf internet and post here.
I heard the news when I was working this morning. I can not belive it, but it is the truth. I hope you all ok soon. Miss you!

Griff · 08-15-2003, 10:20 AM

Its not too big a deal Billy. While there is health danger for the infirm, there really hasn't been any trouble from robbery or rioting in NYC. It seems the city has grown up a bit. They'll go back to their old ways when everythings normal but it looks like New York has a new ethic in times of trouble. Here in rural Pennsylvania we had a very short outage which effected country life very little.

tw · 08-15-2003, 01:28 PM

No thanks to the pathetic Jim Gardner for cutting off good technical information so that he could report the Philadelphia perspective to a blackout - that did not involve Philadelphia or adjacent New Jersey. What perspective? Blackout involved the NY Indepentent System Operator (NYISO) power grid (formally known as the NY State Power Pool).

Observe where tentacles of that blackout reached to learn where problem probably lies. Somewhere in the NY State / Canadian power pool. At 16:10:48, a superior power grid (PJM) observed massive sucking of power into their NYISO connections. PJM cut off those connections, adverting a massive power failure in NJ, MD, PA, and DE. However where those connections were made, especially where multiple connections were made between same two substations, then local PJM grid probably cut off all power including locate customers; protecting the PJM system and even power to The Cellar.

For example, NJ feeds NYC and Westchester in three major connections. One connects Hudson County NJ to Brooklyn / Queens NY. As NYC and Long Island sucked power from NJ, the Hudson country area (Hoboken, Bayone, Jersey City region) was cut off from the PJM grid. Same applies to another connection via Mahwah NJ and Ramapo NY also resulting in power loss in NJ's Bergen and Passaic counties - from Hudon River west along the NY/NJ border.

Cleveland also gets power from the NYISO via PJM transmisson lines. As a result, PJM also cut off major power connections to NYISO from Niagra Mohawk to Cleveland Electric to protect the western half of the PJM grid. Cleveland may also have been cut off from the Midwest grid to protect that grid.

Other grids were also adversely affected by this NYISO power suck. For example, NorthEast utilities lost western CT when the New England power grid cut off power to NYC and Long Island. Detriot, like Cleveland, lost power when it too suffered from a sucking sound via Ontario and the NYISO grid.

As if we have not yet learned from Challenger, Columbia, CA energy crisis, or even Three Mile Island. There was no shortage of electric generation nor a shortage of transimission facilities. Only the spin doctors and perverbial liars are hyping such stories. A grid is very dependent on its control system. If one transmission line is lost, the resulting load can overstress another line. That other line need not even be adjacent or in the geographical vicinity. But when that second line is lost, then other lines suffer from a cascading increase in excessive loads.

PJM performs extensive computer simulations so that every loss of a line can be predicted. Even with new power lines installed, the simulations are repeated so that other lines can be upgraded. The system is constantly upgraded to avoid the cascade failure that could result of a new power line or new load installed elsewhere. However NYISO again could not respond properly. Do they perform such simulations constantly? Not if like in CA, the top management is a lawyer or some MBA type.

Again, the perverbial liars will cite no major transmission lines built in NY in 15 years. They will cite difficulty in building new generation factilities. They will cite the transmission line from CT to Long Island under LI Sound that is still not operational (due to FUBARs by NY electric company management). They will forget to mention that there was no shortage of transmission or generation capacity. This failure probably happened because ... well what is the background of top management in the NYISO and its member electric companies?

Not that PJM is completely innocent. They should have cut off NYISO connections before the resulting sucking caused loss of power to Hudson, Bergen, Passaic counties and Erie PA. Other transmissions lines did cut out to protect Central PA. Curiously, the lines that did not cut out were multiple transmission lines. Single connections were properly disconnected suggesting that PJM has some control system problems with their NY State connections that involve multiple lines. But reason for a NY / Canada failure is massive management problems and the resulting problematic control system.

85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management. Most of what was posted here is speculation based upon knowledge of the system and what technical information did get by scummy Action News (Channel 6) reports and the common sense deprived Jim Gardner. Why, when a representative of PJM is explaining solid facts, would Jim Gardner cut off his testimony? People like Jim Gardner are too busy reporting what the ignorant 'person in the street' said or the fact deprived NJ Governor.

Who quickly claimed what went wrong (without knowledge)? Power plant explosion in Con Ed. Con Ed power plant failure in upper NY State (even though no such Con Ed plant exists). Nuclear reactor problem in PA. Lightning to a Niagra Mohawk generator. Line faults in Canada. Don't be foolish enough to believe that experts don't know what they are talking about. All those reports came from your enemies - people without technical knowledge who only need their emotions to know what failed. It is your enemies who flooded news stations with fictional reports. There was no NYC power plant fire. No Niagra Mohawk lightning strike. No PA nuclear power plant shutdown.

There will be more substantial information provided in maybe two weeks or so. But by that time, this blackout is simply another 'car crash' to Jim Gardner and his 'local gossip' news team. He cannot bother to report facts. More important were pictures of crying people because the lights went out. But then you can't blame him. Too many of us think that way. Too many only watch that local gossip for the emotional value - and read the Daily News for same reasons. How many even knew of or where we in PJM get connected and supply NY State? Good news reporters would have reported that up front.

Interesting will be how accurate this above proposed scenario matches with future investigations. And how many of us will criticize and condemn those who spouted reasons for failure without first learning facts.

Some organizations did their job. PJM is one. NY City Transit system was another by keeping their passengers informed AND by evacuating trains in a responsible and timely manner. Other organizations such as NJ Transit (on the old Erie Lackawanna) apparently also have managment problems.

Undertoad · 08-15-2003, 01:50 PM

They will cite the transmission line from CT to Long Island under LI Sound that is still not operational (due to FUBARs by NY electric company management).

FYI, they said that connection is powering Long Island right now.

For someone who hates Action News so much, you seem to watch an awful lot of it.

wolf · 08-15-2003, 01:52 PM

keep your friends close, and your enemies closer, toad.

tw · 08-15-2003, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Undertoad
They will cite the transmission line from CT to Long Island under LI Sound that is still not operational (due to FUBARs by NY electric company management).
FYI, they said that connection is powering Long Island right now.
For someone who hates Action News so much, you seem to watch an awful lot of it.

That transmission line, as described in a recent issue of IEEE Spectrum and just reported again on WCBS Newsradio, still is not operational. From IEEE Spectrum:

Quote:

In what now seems a sorry repeat of that sad tale, in May 2002, an electric power cable was placed under Long Island Sound between New Haven, Conn., and the site of the decommissioned Shoreham facility [see map]. The builder of the 36-km-long cable was a subsidiary of Hydro Quebec's transmission division (Montreal) and UIL Holdings Corp. (New Haven) called Cross-Sound Cable Company LLC. But on 6 January, the Connecticut Department of Environmental Protection (DEP) ruled that the current was not to be turned on. The reason, or at any rate the pretext: near the Connecticut shore, 200 meters of the cable remains lying on, instead of 2 meters below, the floor of the sound—the depth required by state and federal authorities. ...
If all had gone according to plan, the cross-sound cable would have been carrying current within weeks of being laid, and LIPA would have had extra power available last summer, when demand on the island came within 1 percent of capacity. (The traditional reserve margin is 18 percent.) Instead, the cable remains off-line more than five years after it was first proposed, and another difficult summer could lie ahead.

Two other cables already exist from Norwalk CT. These are separate and not mentioned by those hypsters. Easy for ill informed news people to be confused by those with political agendas.

To get real news, one must watch Channel 6. However when ABC Network is asking good technical questions, then local reporter Jim Gardner butts in with what he describes as "the Philadelphia perspective". He does what local gossips do. He wasted time with no facts. Eventually I connected an antenna to receive Channel 16 from Wilke Barre - so that Jim Gardner was cut out and so that real news reporters from ABC network were not interrupted by 'the Philadelphia perspective'.

Undertoad · 08-15-2003, 03:11 PM

That transmission line is operational as of today.

Energy Sec'y emergency order

Quote:

Late Thursday evening, Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham directed the New York and New England Independent System Operators (ISOs) to activate, if necessary, the Cross Sound Cable connecting Shoreham, Long Island and New Haven, Connecticut. This order will allow power to flow on the Cross Sound Cable between the two states. Activation of this 330 megawatt cable will help stabilize voltage between the two states and enable electricity to flow quickly when the generation system is operable, reducing the time needed for full restoration and reliable operation of the electric system.

Statement from Cross-Sound Cable Company on Operation Status of Cross-Sound Cable

Quote:

WESTBOROUGH, Mass., Aug. 15 /PRNewswire/ -- Today, the Cross-Sound Cable located under Long Island Sound was energized and power is currently flowing over the cable.

To get real news one must visit the Cellar.

xoxoxoBruce · 08-15-2003, 03:54 PM

Yeah,Billy. Like TW said the lights went out for a while. No big deal. They'll find out why later.

I could go on for hours on the difficulty of restarting a steam turbine/generator after an emergency shut down and synchronizing to reconnecting to the grid but I won't.
Thank you, thank you very much.

warch · 08-15-2003, 09:02 PM

Well I dunno what y'all are talking about.
Yes Billy, I do have blackouts in my family. Generally these occur around the holidays after much captive togetherness that involves Grandma discussing politics.

xoxoxoBruce · 08-15-2003, 10:06 PM

Ha, ha, ha, is there any alcohol involved?

Billy · 08-15-2003, 10:17 PM

I am afraid the traffic accidents on the road, some people die in the dark time. On other side, maybe it is good chance to modify the power system.

xoxoxoBruce · 08-15-2003, 10:28 PM

No problem Billy, our cars have lights on them to see at night.
As for the power grid, we have people studying the latest in modern systems, in Iraq.

08-15-2003, 10:20 AM	#2
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	Its not too big a deal Billy. While there is health danger for the infirm, there really hasn't been any trouble from robbery or rioting in NYC. It seems the city has grown up a bit. They'll go back to their old ways when everythings normal but it looks like New York has a new ethic in times of trouble. Here in rural Pennsylvania we had a very short outage which effected country life very little. __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

08-15-2003, 01:28 PM	#3
tw Read? I only know how to write. Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 11,933	Probablity of failure - and the bigger picture No thanks to the pathetic Jim Gardner for cutting off good technical information so that he could report the Philadelphia perspective to a blackout - that did not involve Philadelphia or adjacent New Jersey. What perspective? Blackout involved the NY Indepentent System Operator (NYISO) power grid (formally known as the NY State Power Pool). Observe where tentacles of that blackout reached to learn where problem probably lies. Somewhere in the NY State / Canadian power pool. At 16:10:48, a superior power grid (PJM) observed massive sucking of power into their NYISO connections. PJM cut off those connections, adverting a massive power failure in NJ, MD, PA, and DE. However where those connections were made, especially where multiple connections were made between same two substations, then local PJM grid probably cut off all power including locate customers; protecting the PJM system and even power to The Cellar. For example, NJ feeds NYC and Westchester in three major connections. One connects Hudson County NJ to Brooklyn / Queens NY. As NYC and Long Island sucked power from NJ, the Hudson country area (Hoboken, Bayone, Jersey City region) was cut off from the PJM grid. Same applies to another connection via Mahwah NJ and Ramapo NY also resulting in power loss in NJ's Bergen and Passaic counties - from Hudon River west along the NY/NJ border. Cleveland also gets power from the NYISO via PJM transmisson lines. As a result, PJM also cut off major power connections to NYISO from Niagra Mohawk to Cleveland Electric to protect the western half of the PJM grid. Cleveland may also have been cut off from the Midwest grid to protect that grid. Other grids were also adversely affected by this NYISO power suck. For example, NorthEast utilities lost western CT when the New England power grid cut off power to NYC and Long Island. Detriot, like Cleveland, lost power when it too suffered from a sucking sound via Ontario and the NYISO grid. As if we have not yet learned from Challenger, Columbia, CA energy crisis, or even Three Mile Island. There was no shortage of electric generation nor a shortage of transimission facilities. Only the spin doctors and perverbial liars are hyping such stories. A grid is very dependent on its control system. If one transmission line is lost, the resulting load can overstress another line. That other line need not even be adjacent or in the geographical vicinity. But when that second line is lost, then other lines suffer from a cascading increase in excessive loads. PJM performs extensive computer simulations so that every loss of a line can be predicted. Even with new power lines installed, the simulations are repeated so that other lines can be upgraded. The system is constantly upgraded to avoid the cascade failure that could result of a new power line or new load installed elsewhere. However NYISO again could not respond properly. Do they perform such simulations constantly? Not if like in CA, the top management is a lawyer or some MBA type. Again, the perverbial liars will cite no major transmission lines built in NY in 15 years. They will cite difficulty in building new generation factilities. They will cite the transmission line from CT to Long Island under LI Sound that is still not operational (due to FUBARs by NY electric company management). They will forget to mention that there was no shortage of transmission or generation capacity. This failure probably happened because ... well what is the background of top management in the NYISO and its member electric companies? Not that PJM is completely innocent. They should have cut off NYISO connections before the resulting sucking caused loss of power to Hudson, Bergen, Passaic counties and Erie PA. Other transmissions lines did cut out to protect Central PA. Curiously, the lines that did not cut out were multiple transmission lines. Single connections were properly disconnected suggesting that PJM has some control system problems with their NY State connections that involve multiple lines. But reason for a NY / Canada failure is massive management problems and the resulting problematic control system. 85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management. Most of what was posted here is speculation based upon knowledge of the system and what technical information did get by scummy Action News (Channel 6) reports and the common sense deprived Jim Gardner. Why, when a representative of PJM is explaining solid facts, would Jim Gardner cut off his testimony? People like Jim Gardner are too busy reporting what the ignorant 'person in the street' said or the fact deprived NJ Governor. Who quickly claimed what went wrong (without knowledge)? Power plant explosion in Con Ed. Con Ed power plant failure in upper NY State (even though no such Con Ed plant exists). Nuclear reactor problem in PA. Lightning to a Niagra Mohawk generator. Line faults in Canada. Don't be foolish enough to believe that experts don't know what they are talking about. All those reports came from your enemies - people without technical knowledge who only need their emotions to know what failed. It is your enemies who flooded news stations with fictional reports. There was no NYC power plant fire. No Niagra Mohawk lightning strike. No PA nuclear power plant shutdown. There will be more substantial information provided in maybe two weeks or so. But by that time, this blackout is simply another 'car crash' to Jim Gardner and his 'local gossip' news team. He cannot bother to report facts. More important were pictures of crying people because the lights went out. But then you can't blame him. Too many of us think that way. Too many only watch that local gossip for the emotional value - and read the Daily News for same reasons. How many even knew of or where we in PJM get connected and supply NY State? Good news reporters would have reported that up front. Interesting will be how accurate this above proposed scenario matches with future investigations. And how many of us will criticize and condemn those who spouted reasons for failure without first learning facts. Some organizations did their job. PJM is one. NY City Transit system was another by keeping their passengers informed AND by evacuating trains in a responsible and timely manner. Other organizations such as NJ Transit (on the old Erie Lackawanna) apparently also have managment problems. Last edited by tw; 08-15-2003 at 01:36 PM.

08-15-2003, 01:52 PM	#5
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	keep your friends close, and your enemies closer, toad. __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

08-15-2003, 03:54 PM	#8
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Yeah,Billy. Like TW said the lights went out for a while. No big deal. They'll find out why later. I could go on for hours on the difficulty of restarting a steam turbine/generator after an emergency shut down and synchronizing to reconnecting to the grid but I won't. Thank you, thank you very much. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

08-15-2003, 10:06 PM	#10
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Ha, ha, ha, is there any alcohol involved? __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

08-15-2003, 01:50 PM	#4
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	They will cite the transmission line from CT to Long Island under LI Sound that is still not operational (due to FUBARs by NY electric company management). FYI, they said that connection is powering Long Island right now. For someone who hates Action News so much, you seem to watch an awful lot of it.

08-15-2003, 09:02 PM	#9
warch lurkin old school Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,796	Well I dunno what y'all are talking about. Yes Billy, I do have blackouts in my family. Generally these occur around the holidays after much captive togetherness that involves Grandma discussing politics.

08-15-2003, 10:17 PM	#11
Billy Professor Join Date: May 2003 Location: Germany Posts: 1,462	It is ok I am afraid the traffic accidents on the road, some people die in the dark time. On other side, maybe it is good chance to modify the power system.

08-15-2003, 10:28 PM	#12
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	No problem Billy, our cars have lights on them to see at night. As for the power grid, we have people studying the latest in modern systems, in Iraq. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

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