Department of Empty Rhetoric

Griff · 05-24-2013, 01:05 PM

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...7c1_story.html

Read this terrible speech where the President disavows his own administrations Gitmo and drones policies! Apparently he can't do anything about it.

glatt · 05-24-2013, 01:37 PM

Well, I didn't listen to the speech and don't have time to read it now, but based on news reports on it, if he wants to scale back the drone attacks and make them a little more transparent, that's at least a step in the right direction. And talking about closing Gitmo is better than doing nothing at all. It's not an inspirational speech, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it's terrible.

He says he wants to close Gitmo, but can't bring the prisoners here because of opposition. I'm not sure how that works. Seems to me he could just bring them to military prisons here. Commander in Chief and all that.

Griff · 05-24-2013, 02:04 PM

He says he wants to scale it back but it would appear they don't adhere to the present standard.

Copies of the top-secret U.S. intelligence reports reviewed by McClatchy, however, show that drone strikes in Pakistan over a four-year period didn’t adhere to those standards.

The intelligence reports list killings of alleged Afghan insurgents whose organization wasn’t on the U.S. list of terrorist groups at the time of the 9/11 strikes; of suspected members of a Pakistani extremist group that didn’t exist at the time of 9/11; and of unidentified individuals described as “other militants” and “foreign fighters.”

In a response to questions from McClatchy, the White House defended its targeting policies, pointing to previous public statements by senior administration officials that the missile strikes are aimed at al Qaida and associated forces.

Micah Zenko, an expert with the Council on Foreign Relations, a bipartisan foreign policy think tank, who closely follows the target killing program, said McClatchy’s findings indicate that the administration is “misleading the public about the scope of who can legitimately be targeted.”

Read more here: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/04/0...#storylink=cpy

Happy Monkey · 05-24-2013, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glatt

He says he wants to close Gitmo, but can't bring the prisoners here because of opposition. I'm not sure how that works. Seems to me he could just bring them to military prisons here. Commander in Chief and all that.

Congress banned him from using any money to do that, last time he tried.

piercehawkeye45 · 05-24-2013, 03:27 PM

I'm guessing the speech was purely a response to the pressure put on him for his drone policy but I'm not convinced that there are much better solutions. The problem I see is that there is so much uncertainty and ambiguity involved with the drone strike selection process that it would be nearly impossible to create strict guidelines that would end up being reasonable. I see that as more of a reason for the inconsistency than purely empty rhetoric.

I don't know....both sides of this issue have legitimate points...

tw · 05-24-2013, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

I'm guessing the speech was purely a response to the pressure put on him for his drone policy but I'm not convinced that there are much better solutions.

America never really had any policy. Drones that attack are completely new. There was no policy. Drones were used as necessary to solve immediate problems. Without grasp of the long term effects or how that actions might contradict military and civilian principles of law. Drone were commanded by the CIA so that legality issues could be avoided. Even that will now change.

With experience, we have learned significant problems, dangers, and legal contradictions that were unknown or discussed 5 years ago. And so the President has defined a framework to limit drone activity. So that acts are more in line with the nation's principles of law. And so that drones do not make enemies as they (unfortunately) have places such as Pakistan.

We have killed innocent people only because they had negotiated with the Taliban. The President has attempted new guidelines so that even that might be avoided in the future.

I don't see anything controversial. We have learned much in only a few years. And desperately needed this framework based in what we have learned from our mistakes.

Griff · 05-25-2013, 07:56 AM

I voted for the guy over terrible GOP choices. We've listened to him long enough to know when we're being fed a convenient line of crap to puff up his support ie. early education commitment. Listen to the concern in his voice about who we've become, bullshit all of it. He was the President when these policies were made.

regular.joe · 05-25-2013, 05:42 PM

The drone campaign has been managed or commanded by the CIA because it falls under the auspices of irregular warfare, as well as the legal ability for the CIA to prosecute this war more freely than the military. Mainly because the CIA prosecutes irregular warfare.

As to making enemies in Pakistan, I'm not sure if more enemies are made by drones or by Madrasas sponsored by the UAE which kick out a regular crop of radical west hating ready made enemies of the USA.

Drone attacks in Pakistan are flown with full knowledge of the Pakistani military. Pakistan would love for the world to think that it's all the US, and they are a helpless victim. Truth is the military in Pakistan is complicit and fosters the idea that they are victims in the drone campaign because of the politics involved in their own country.

As far as prisoners at GITMO, for the life of me I can't figure out why they have never been treated as enemy combatants. The Bush administration started the ball rolling and it's never stopped. They should never have been tortured. They are belligerents captured on the field of battle. They should be returned to their own country at the end of the conflict. It should not matter to us that many of them will be executed upon arrival. That it does matter to us speaks more highly of our collective conscience than my own. This whole GITMO thing started out on the wrong foot and will have a bad ending no matter how you slice it. Suck it up USA and end it while you can.

classicman · 05-26-2013, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Griff

I voted for the guy over terrible GOP choices. We've listened to him long enough to know when we're being fed a convenient line of crap to puff up his support ie. early education commitment. Listen to the concern in his voice about who we've become, bullshit all of it. He was the President when these policies were made.

Thank you.

classicman · 05-26-2013, 11:01 AM

Associated Press Intimidation ... Fox news reporter cited as a spy... IRS scandal... Holder to investigate Holder ... etc etc etc. Since all this is happening under a "D" I see little criticism and more excuses over non-issues. If the Pres were an "R", it would be All over the cellar what assholes and dictators and and and the "R"s are ... However, I'm struggling to find even a mention of most things here. Sad.

tw · 05-26-2013, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by regular.joe

As far as prisoners at GITMO, for the life of me I can't figure out why they have never been treated as enemy combatants. The Bush administration started the ball rolling and it's never stopped.

That answer was always simple and obvious. George Jr's administration paid $thousands to uinknown parties for 'evil' Muslims. Even filled Gitmo with almost 800 people who were innocent. If they did what was responsible - put each up for trial - then even extremists would admit that most Gitmo prisoners were innocent. That was not acceptable in a government run by and with Cheney's attitude (Project for a New American Century).

After all, liars cannot afford to be exposed as liars. Even Cheney's wacko extremist friends in Congress made sure Gitmo prisioners would never see an honest hearing. Extremists will do anything possible to torture those who do not agree with them. And imprison people in violation of the Constitution and International law. It is their new world order.

Most every prisoner released from Gitmo to his home country was set free. Because they were innocent victims of wacko extremists. Victims now have every reason to hate Americans. We really cannot blame them. Too many of us fully believed eight years of George Jr lies. Americans will witness consequences of so many lies including and not limited to Gitmo.

classicman · 05-26-2013, 05:13 PM

^case in point.

Lamplighter · 05-27-2013, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by regular.joe

<snip>
As far as prisoners at GITMO, for the life of me I can't figure out why
they have never been treated as enemy combatants.
The Bush administration started the ball rolling and it's never stopped.
They should never have been tortured. They are belligerents captured on the field of battle.
They should be returned to their own country at the end of the conflict.
It should not matter to us that many of them will be executed upon arrival.
That it does matter to us speaks more highly of our collective conscience than my own.
This whole GITMO thing started out on the wrong foot and will
have a bad ending no matter how you slice it.
Suck it up USA and end it while you can.

I can't say why, but this part of your post has stuck with me ever since I read it.

It came to mind again this morning as I read an article in the NY Times.
I'm not trying to trap you or anything like that,
but I think your opinions would be interesting on the ideas
in the article (~ the value and effects of a national draft ~).
... from here entitled "Americans and Their Military, Drifting Apart"

Lamplighter · 05-28-2013, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by classicman

Associated Press Intimidation ... Fox news reporter cited as a spy...
IRS scandal... Holder to investigate Holder ... etc etc etc.
Since all this is happening under a "D" I see little criticism and more excuses over non-issues.
If the Pres were an "R", it would be All over the cellar what assholes
and dictators and and and the "R"s are ...
However, I'm struggling to find even a mention of most things here. Sad.

Classic, here's a new one coming down the path for you...

NY Times
5/27/13

Silencing the Whistle-Blowers

Quote:

<snip>
Issued on Jan. 25, the memo instructs the director of national intelligence
and the Office of Personnel Management to establish standards that would give federal agencies
the power to fire employees, without appeal, deemed ineligible to hold “noncritical sensitive” jobs.
It means giving them immense power to bypass civil service law,
which is the foundation for all whistle-blower rights.
<snip>

Again, Merc and Sam Alito will be proud.

regular.joe · 05-28-2013, 04:20 PM

Lampy. I want to reply. Not from my phone though. Ill be back home around the 18th.

Sent through my connection with the aliens.

05-24-2013, 01:05 PM	#1
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	Department of Empty Rhetoric http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...7c1_story.html Read this terrible speech where the President disavows his own administrations Gitmo and drones policies! Apparently he can't do anything about it. __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

05-24-2013, 02:04 PM	#3
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	He says he wants to scale it back but it would appear they don't adhere to the present standard. Copies of the top-secret U.S. intelligence reports reviewed by McClatchy, however, show that drone strikes in Pakistan over a four-year period didn’t adhere to those standards. The intelligence reports list killings of alleged Afghan insurgents whose organization wasn’t on the U.S. list of terrorist groups at the time of the 9/11 strikes; of suspected members of a Pakistani extremist group that didn’t exist at the time of 9/11; and of unidentified individuals described as “other militants” and “foreign fighters.” In a response to questions from McClatchy, the White House defended its targeting policies, pointing to previous public statements by senior administration officials that the missile strikes are aimed at al Qaida and associated forces. Micah Zenko, an expert with the Council on Foreign Relations, a bipartisan foreign policy think tank, who closely follows the target killing program, said McClatchy’s findings indicate that the administration is “misleading the public about the scope of who can legitimately be targeted.” Read more here: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/04/0...#storylink=cpy __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

05-24-2013, 03:27 PM	#5
piercehawkeye45 Franklin Pierce Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,695	I'm guessing the speech was purely a response to the pressure put on him for his drone policy but I'm not convinced that there are much better solutions. The problem I see is that there is so much uncertainty and ambiguity involved with the drone strike selection process that it would be nearly impossible to create strict guidelines that would end up being reasonable. I see that as more of a reason for the inconsistency than purely empty rhetoric. I don't know....both sides of this issue have legitimate points... __________________ I like my perspectives like I like my baseball caps: one size fits all.

05-25-2013, 07:56 AM	#7
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	I voted for the guy over terrible GOP choices. We've listened to him long enough to know when we're being fed a convenient line of crap to puff up his support ie. early education commitment. Listen to the concern in his voice about who we've become, bullshit all of it. He was the President when these policies were made. __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

05-25-2013, 05:42 PM	#8
regular.joe Старый сержант Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: NC, dreaming of large Russian women. Posts: 1,464	The drone campaign has been managed or commanded by the CIA because it falls under the auspices of irregular warfare, as well as the legal ability for the CIA to prosecute this war more freely than the military. Mainly because the CIA prosecutes irregular warfare. As to making enemies in Pakistan, I'm not sure if more enemies are made by drones or by Madrasas sponsored by the UAE which kick out a regular crop of radical west hating ready made enemies of the USA. Drone attacks in Pakistan are flown with full knowledge of the Pakistani military. Pakistan would love for the world to think that it's all the US, and they are a helpless victim. Truth is the military in Pakistan is complicit and fosters the idea that they are victims in the drone campaign because of the politics involved in their own country. As far as prisoners at GITMO, for the life of me I can't figure out why they have never been treated as enemy combatants. The Bush administration started the ball rolling and it's never stopped. They should never have been tortured. They are belligerents captured on the field of battle. They should be returned to their own country at the end of the conflict. It should not matter to us that many of them will be executed upon arrival. That it does matter to us speaks more highly of our collective conscience than my own. This whole GITMO thing started out on the wrong foot and will have a bad ending no matter how you slice it. Suck it up USA and end it while you can. __________________ Birth, wealth, and position are valueless during wartime. Man is only judged by his character --Soldier's Testament. Death, like birth, is a secret of Nature. - Marcus Aurelius.

05-24-2013, 01:37 PM	#2
glatt ™ Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Arlington, VA Posts: 27,717	Well, I didn't listen to the speech and don't have time to read it now, but based on news reports on it, if he wants to scale back the drone attacks and make them a little more transparent, that's at least a step in the right direction. And talking about closing Gitmo is better than doing nothing at all. It's not an inspirational speech, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it's terrible. He says he wants to close Gitmo, but can't bring the prisoners here because of opposition. I'm not sure how that works. Seems to me he could just bring them to military prisons here. Commander in Chief and all that.

05-26-2013, 11:01 AM	#10
classicman barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23,401	Associated Press Intimidation ... Fox news reporter cited as a spy... IRS scandal... Holder to investigate Holder ... etc etc etc. Since all this is happening under a "D" I see little criticism and more excuses over non-issues. If the Pres were an "R", it would be All over the cellar what assholes and dictators and and and the "R"s are ... However, I'm struggling to find even a mention of most things here. Sad. __________________ "like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt

05-26-2013, 05:13 PM	#12
classicman barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23,401	^case in point. __________________ "like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt

05-28-2013, 04:20 PM	#15
regular.joe Старый сержант Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: NC, dreaming of large Russian women. Posts: 1,464	Lampy. I want to reply. Not from my phone though. Ill be back home around the 18th. Sent through my connection with the aliens. __________________ Birth, wealth, and position are valueless during wartime. Man is only judged by his character --Soldier's Testament. Death, like birth, is a secret of Nature. - Marcus Aurelius.

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