Case to Watch

Griff · 02-26-2012, 06:38 AM

Zombie Mohammad

There is a surprising story out of Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania that seems the perfect storm of religious tensions. You begin with Ernie Perce, an atheist who marched as a zombie Mohammad in the Mechanicsburg Halloween parade. Then you add Talaag Elbayomy, a Muslim who stepped off a curb and reportedly attacked Perce for insulting the Prophet. Then you have a judge (Judge Mark Martin) who threw out the criminal charges against Elbayomy and ridiculed the victim, Perce. The Judge identifies himself as a Muslim and says that Perce conduct is not what the First Amendment is supposed to protect.

Nope. This is exactly what the first amendment is meant to protect. Zombie Muhammad is a great metaphor.

Rhianne · 02-26-2012, 08:24 AM

A metaphor is a glorious thing.

footfootfoot · 02-26-2012, 09:03 AM

It is a very interesting case, on the one hand the judge points out the perceived nature of the attack on Islam by Muslims--this could, by Muslims, be interpreted as inciting to riot, something not protected by the first amendment. But, really only in their own country or culture which would recognize it as such. On the other hand this is the USA and we have a very different cultural identity, as Americans, from Muslims. Being a resident in the US or having a green card, or even being a citizen, is not really the same thing as being an American, in my view. Being an American means having some skin in the game, embracing the values of your (new) country--not trying to get other Americans to change themselves to suit you.

That may not be in the constitution but it is in our country's folklore. When you read stories of immigrants to this country, grateful immigrants, one of the key elements you read about is retaining cultural identity while at the same time adopting the new culture.

A partial exception to that, from personal observation after living 20 some years in and around NYC, might be the Chinese and Koreans. They have really maintained a lot of cultural identity and autonomy without assimilating much, BUT they've really done it within the framework of America's culture.

Lamplighter · 02-26-2012, 09:53 AM

Quote:

On the other hand this is the USA and we have a very different cultural identity, as Americans, from Muslims.
Being a resident in the US or having a green card, or even being a citizen, is not really the same thing as being an American, in my view.
Being an American means having some skin in the game, embracing the values of your (new) country
--not trying to get other Americans to change themselves to suit you.

There is always a problem trying to say what is American.
"as Americans, from Muslims" is a nationality versus a religion.
A lot of Americans are Christian, and a lot of Muslims are Americans
...and a lot of Jews are .... and a lot of ... and a lot... and a ... and...
It becomes meaningless.

A lot of people want to believe America is Christian,
but that's just another wedge issue to divide one group from another.

Likewise, the business of "not trying to get other Americans to change themselves"
is, in my mind, either meaningless, or one of the true characteristics of politics.
Of course, everyone tries to get others to change to suit themselves.

Back to the OP trial, compare the zombie Mohammad with the Westboro Baptist Church (religion),
or burning the American flag or burning a draft card in the 60's (politics)
... it's all pretty much the same stuff..a belief that "my way is better".

footfootfoot · 02-26-2012, 10:21 AM

I don't see America as being Christian, although I know a lot of people do. I also think that according to what the judge was saying about being a Muslim it is much more than a religion it is a cultural identity.

Yes, people do try to get others to change, but I really think that it mostly happens within the context of our social norms and cultural identity.

I think zealous fundamentalists, regardless of what god they pretend exists, are all pretty much the same once you unwrap them.

Griff · 02-26-2012, 10:28 AM

To me the scarey part is that instead of defending the zombies right to free speech Christian fundies may realize that common ground with Muslim fundies and start working together to further special exemptions for religious over secular society.

Ibby · 02-26-2012, 11:55 AM

I agree. Muslim and Christian fundamentalists have WAY more in common than they'd like to admit to themselves - and a free, secular society is their common enemy. Rick Santorum is the face of the American Taliban

footfootfoot · 02-26-2012, 11:57 AM

Wait, the American Taliban is a frothy mix of lube and fecal matter? That actually explains a lot.

regular.joe · 02-26-2012, 12:39 PM

Wow, the thought to thought trail of this thread is AMAZING!

classicman · 02-26-2012, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by footfootfoot

Being an American means having some skin in the game,
embracing the values of your (new) country--
not trying to get other Americans to change themselves to suit you.

That may not be in the constitution but it is in our country's folklore.
When you read stories of immigrants to this country, grateful immigrants, one of the key elements you read about is
retaining cultural identity while at the same time adopting the new culture.

Excellent post!

regular.joe · 02-26-2012, 03:44 PM

My great grandparents came to this country from Poland and Russia. They would not allow Polish or Russian to spoken in the house as their children would be American. But the FOOD! I still love me some Polish and Russian soul food.

sexobon · 02-26-2012, 04:04 PM

People like Zombie Mohammad could prove to be too stupid to live. Whether his conduct is legal or not, he may end up with a radioactive pellet fired into him from an umbrella gun. Everyone here has been so worried about Iran producing radioactive material for WMD, they haven't even noticed that Iran recently increased its "umbrella" production and export twenty fold. There'll be plenty of the walking dead around if people like Zombie Mohammed continue to PUBLICLY mock the religious icons of others even when done legally.

footfootfoot · 02-26-2012, 04:21 PM

Good point, sexobon.

tw · 02-26-2012, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibram

I agree. Muslim and Christian fundamentalists have WAY more in common than they'd like to admit to themselves

Extremists always need a bogeyman to rally their followers. Extremist Christians and Muslims simply serve eac other's needs. Each provides a bogeyman for the other. Then wacko extremists can do what they do best: be emotional.

Lamplighter · 02-26-2012, 06:09 PM

Are you a good witch or a bad witch ?

02-26-2012, 06:38 AM	#1
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	Case to Watch Zombie Mohammad There is a surprising story out of Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania that seems the perfect storm of religious tensions. You begin with Ernie Perce, an atheist who marched as a zombie Mohammad in the Mechanicsburg Halloween parade. Then you add Talaag Elbayomy, a Muslim who stepped off a curb and reportedly attacked Perce for insulting the Prophet. Then you have a judge (Judge Mark Martin) who threw out the criminal charges against Elbayomy and ridiculed the victim, Perce. The Judge identifies himself as a Muslim and says that Perce conduct is not what the First Amendment is supposed to protect. Nope. This is exactly what the first amendment is meant to protect. Zombie Muhammad is a great metaphor. __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

02-26-2012, 09:03 AM	#3
footfootfoot To shreds, you say? Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: in the house and on the street-how many, many feet we meet! Posts: 18,449	It is a very interesting case, on the one hand the judge points out the perceived nature of the attack on Islam by Muslims--this could, by Muslims, be interpreted as inciting to riot, something not protected by the first amendment. But, really only in their own country or culture which would recognize it as such. On the other hand this is the USA and we have a very different cultural identity, as Americans, from Muslims. Being a resident in the US or having a green card, or even being a citizen, is not really the same thing as being an American, in my view. Being an American means having some skin in the game, embracing the values of your (new) country--not trying to get other Americans to change themselves to suit you. That may not be in the constitution but it is in our country's folklore. When you read stories of immigrants to this country, grateful immigrants, one of the key elements you read about is retaining cultural identity while at the same time adopting the new culture. A partial exception to that, from personal observation after living 20 some years in and around NYC, might be the Chinese and Koreans. They have really maintained a lot of cultural identity and autonomy without assimilating much, BUT they've really done it within the framework of America's culture. __________________ The internet is a hateful stew of vomit you can never take completely seriously. - Her Fobs

02-26-2012, 10:21 AM	#5
footfootfoot To shreds, you say? Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: in the house and on the street-how many, many feet we meet! Posts: 18,449	I don't see America as being Christian, although I know a lot of people do. I also think that according to what the judge was saying about being a Muslim it is much more than a religion it is a cultural identity. Yes, people do try to get others to change, but I really think that it mostly happens within the context of our social norms and cultural identity. I think zealous fundamentalists, regardless of what god they pretend exists, are all pretty much the same once you unwrap them. __________________ The internet is a hateful stew of vomit you can never take completely seriously. - Her Fobs

02-26-2012, 10:28 AM	#6
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	To me the scarey part is that instead of defending the zombies right to free speech Christian fundies may realize that common ground with Muslim fundies and start working together to further special exemptions for religious over secular society. __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

02-26-2012, 11:55 AM	#7
Ibby erika Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: "the high up north" Posts: 6,127	I agree. Muslim and Christian fundamentalists have WAY more in common than they'd like to admit to themselves - and a free, secular society is their common enemy. Rick Santorum is the face of the American Taliban __________________ not really back, you didn't see me, i was never here shhhhhh

02-26-2012, 08:24 AM	#2
Rhianne Nearly done. Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Teetering on the edge. Posts: 1,134	A metaphor is a glorious thing.

02-26-2012, 11:57 AM	#8
footfootfoot To shreds, you say? Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: in the house and on the street-how many, many feet we meet! Posts: 18,449	Wait, the American Taliban is a frothy mix of lube and fecal matter? That actually explains a lot. __________________ The internet is a hateful stew of vomit you can never take completely seriously. - Her Fobs

02-26-2012, 12:39 PM	#9
regular.joe Старый сержант Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: NC, dreaming of large Russian women. Posts: 1,464	Wow, the thought to thought trail of this thread is AMAZING! __________________ Birth, wealth, and position are valueless during wartime. Man is only judged by his character --Soldier's Testament. Death, like birth, is a secret of Nature. - Marcus Aurelius.

02-26-2012, 03:44 PM	#11
regular.joe Старый сержант Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: NC, dreaming of large Russian women. Posts: 1,464	My great grandparents came to this country from Poland and Russia. They would not allow Polish or Russian to spoken in the house as their children would be American. But the FOOD! I still love me some Polish and Russian soul food. __________________ Birth, wealth, and position are valueless during wartime. Man is only judged by his character --Soldier's Testament. Death, like birth, is a secret of Nature. - Marcus Aurelius.

02-26-2012, 04:04 PM	#12
sexobon I love it when a plan comes together. Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 9,793	People like Zombie Mohammad could prove to be too stupid to live. Whether his conduct is legal or not, he may end up with a radioactive pellet fired into him from an umbrella gun. Everyone here has been so worried about Iran producing radioactive material for WMD, they haven't even noticed that Iran recently increased its "umbrella" production and export twenty fold. There'll be plenty of the walking dead around if people like Zombie Mohammed continue to PUBLICLY mock the religious icons of others even when done legally.

02-26-2012, 04:21 PM	#13
footfootfoot To shreds, you say? Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: in the house and on the street-how many, many feet we meet! Posts: 18,449	Good point, sexobon. __________________ The internet is a hateful stew of vomit you can never take completely seriously. - Her Fobs

02-26-2012, 06:09 PM	#15
Lamplighter Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Bottom lands of the Missoula floods Posts: 6,402	Are you a good witch or a bad witch ? Attached Images

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