College is not where you find a career. College is where you have fun and drink beer

[Undertoad]

Following up on the train of thought in Interesting Charts and Graphs, comes this new headline from CNN Money:

Community college grads out-earn bachelor's degree holders

Nearly 30% of Americans with associate's degrees now make more than those with bachelor's degrees, according to Georgetown University's Center on Education and the Workforce. In fact, other recent research in several states shows that, on average, community college graduates right out of school make more than graduates of four-year universities.

The average wage for graduates of community colleges in Tennessee, for instance, is $38,948 -- more than $1,300 higher than the average salaries for graduates of the state's four-year institutions.

With a four-year degree in Computer Science from a competitive private northeastern college and a third of the coursework towards an MBA, and 25 years experience, I am unemployable in my field unless I move across the country. Well shit happens, and a degree doesn't prepare you for that.

[Undertoad]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...-jobs/1868817/

We don't need degreed people any more. We are now short on uneducated people:

Vedder, whose study is based on 2010 Labor Department data, says the problem is the stock of college graduates in the workforce (41.7 million) in 2010 was larger than the number of jobs requiring a college degree (28.6 million).

That, he says, helps explain why 15% of taxi drivers in 2010 had bachelor's degrees vs. 1% in 1970. Among retail sales clerks, 25% had a bachelor's degree in 2010. Less than 5% did in 1970.

"There are going to be an awful lot of disappointed people because a lot of them are going to end up as janitors," Vedder says. In 2010, 5% of janitors, 115,520 workers, had bachelor's degrees, his data show.

[glatt]

Nearly 30% of Americans with associate's degrees now make more than those with bachelor's degrees

Doesn't this mean over 70% of Americans with bachelor's degrees make more than those with associate's degrees?

[Undertoad]

Yes it does, but the author, editor, and everyone making decisions about the story were college-educated...

I think they are referring to jobs created today. If you want a good paying job today, get a two-year degree.

[glatt]

There was an article a couple weeks ago in the Washington Post (actually, it was probably an opinion piece) that said that yes, college is losing its luster, but it's still the best way to get a high paying job. The piece acknowledged that a lot of college graduates are having a hard time, but that more non-college graduates are having an even harder time. Graduating with a college degree today sucks, but not having one sucks even more.

This is a topic that is very important to me and I want to be as knowledgeable as possible about it. I need to figure out how much I should try to influence my kids' decisions about what they study and if they go to college.

[Clodfobble]

I think it's less about if you go, and more about what you study. The majority of those in community college are not majoring in English, or Theatre, or History, or the worst, Undeclared. They are generally a few years older on average, paying for it themselves, and are studying nursing, or teaching, or some other useful thing, because they've tried the real world and want something better.

If you go to a four year university and study engineering, you'll probably be okay. Study something without a lot of career structure underneath, like economics, for example, and you're going to be unemployable compared to the guy who became a lab tech at the local community college.

You have to go to college for a reason, not just because college is the thing you're supposed to do.

[Lamplighter]

So many people think that college/university degrees are job training.
From a "job" perspective, I think it's better to see them as "union cards".
They are the credentials that get your foot in the door; after that it's up to the individual.
Without that degree, those doors are forever locked.

UT's link above reports that those with a Bachelor degree eventually catch up and pass (> $50k/yr)
those limited to just a community college or high school graduation.
More importantly, I believe college degrees are about life experiences for the future.

Any job will get boring and generate dissatisfaction.
A salary increase has a satisfying effect for only about 6 months.
So if $ is all there is to go on the "job" becomes "work", not a "career".

John Adams' recent thread is a good example...

[glatt]

College degrees are absolutely union cards. They probably shouldn't be, but they are.

[Undertoad]

That is the commonly-held belief which ten years from now will be considered a mistake. You heard it here first. If you want to make money you will need a *real* card in HVAC or plumbing.

If you go to a four year university and study engineering, you'll probably be okay.

That was true twenty years ago but now you have to pick the right engineering degree. If you pick nuclear engineering and the nation decides to not build more nuclear plants, you are shit out of luck and will be driving a taxi or working retail. If you pick networking and the nation decides to allow 250,000 more H1B visas on top of an already-depressed tech labor marketplace, you are shit out of luck and may have to work at a pawn shop.

If we don't make things in this country we don't need engineers to design them. A card or degree won't help you if there are no jobs.

[Clodfobble]

That's true, in my head I was thinking mechanical or electrical engineering. Even civil engineering is having major problems right now, because no one has the money to build.

[Lamplighter]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

That is the commonly-held belief which ten years from now will be considered a mistake. You heard it here first.

Do you really think the Bush-economy and under-employment will last for the next 10 years ?
I don't.

Just from $ alone, your CNN link above says:

Although these figures vary widely by profession, associate's degree recipients, on average,
end up making about $500,000 more over their careers than people with only high school diplomas,
but $500,000 less than people with bachelor's degrees, the Georgetown center calculates.

In my view, AA-degree'd jobs will face much harder times.

IT and "social media"Technology are well on their way to replacing
the "self-educated computer geek" and the "MS-certified" technician.
Apple, Google, MS, etc are already investing in "patent wars", not new soft- or hard-ware.
FaceBook is (desperately) looking outside it's own origins for success,
and automotive engineers have already incorporated more than enough micro-chips, trying to sell cars.

Registered Nurses with only a 2-yr degree are well on their way to extinction
because Medicare/caid etc. are requiring RN's with 4-yr degrees.
If they don't they will lose their jobs or be demoted because
only the hospitals employing those with higher requirements will be reimbursed.

So don't invest in button hooks.

[Undertoad]

Yes, I think the real trend is the rise of the overseas middle class which is competing with the US middle class.

I also believe that the idea that a President controls the economy is superstition. The economy is larger than the government, and Presidents are just lucky or unlucky for events to transpire while they are sitting at their desk.

Yeah medicine has long been considered one thing that can't be outsourced. Except it can: and then careers are ruined. You picked the one aspect, nursing, that can never be outsourced. I guess we'll all be nurses in the long run.

[Perry Winkle]

Online (at least partially) education is the apparent way forward. Lower costs, equivalent learning: http://marginalrevolution.com/margin...t-disease.html

[ZenGum]

I've read reports in the last year arguing that there is an "education bubble" in the US economy. There does indeed come a point where an economy has enough accountants and engineers, and just needs someone to drive the cabs and mop the floors.

[tw]

Originally Posted by ZenGum

There does indeed come a point where an economy has enough accountants and engineers, and just needs someone to drive the cabs and mop the floors.

An OECD economy needs about 6% of their graduates in engineering. The US graduates about 3%. Meanwhile we have too many accountant and business school graduates. People educated in things that are unproductive. Leaving large numbers with high degrees, large debts, and lower salaries.

We also have an unusually large glut of recently graduated lawyers (according to current hiring rates). Also in great and increasing numbers are communication majors. As if advertising or spin creates productivity and innovation.

An iconic example of someone educated in something less useful was once the English major. That resulting joke still survives today even though the problem has more educated in other disciplines.

We also know from history and from Economics 101 that more jobs are created when existing jobs are done with less people every year. A reality that contradicts a popular soundbyte.

We have an increase in people with less education among the early 20 somethings. Whereas education level of girls has increased, a massive downturn in educated boys is growing.

We also know those who most succeed and graduate are uneducated immigrants. That has always been a secret power in the American economy. Large number of uneducated immigrants coming here to be educated and succeeding is why City College of NY historically has a large (if not largest) number of Nobel Prize winners.

In 1950, we knew the future of those kids was the transistor (even though some said it was plastics). Today, we know the future lies in quantum physics. How many today are educated in those principles? To a larger extent, immigrants. Unfortunately, we also have hate of foreigners. Large numbers, educated in such sciences, must now leave due to near zero H1B visas and other 'intentional' obstructions.

We have so few educated in useful disciplines that the Silicon Valley talks about ICs. Not integrated circuits. Indian and Chinese employees.

Source of everything productive in the American economy is innovation. It cannot be measured on spread sheets. Or predicted by economists. Cannot be increased by government. But it can be subverted by politics and financial money games.