Britain installs harsh policing powers

[Undertoad]

...harsh enough to make the Patriot Act look like an "Employees Must Wash Hands After Using Bathroom" sign.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle1845196.ece

NEW anti-terrorism laws are to be pushed through before Tony Blair leaves office giving "wartime" powers to the police to stop and question people.

John Reid, the home secretary, who is also quitting next month, intends to extend Northern Ireland's draconian police powers to interrogate individuals about who they are, where they have been and where they are going.

Under the new laws, police will not need to suspect that a crime has taken place and can use the power to gain information about "matters relevant" to terror investigations.

If suspects fail to stop or refuse to answer questions, they could be charged with a criminal offence and fined up to £5,000. Police already have the power to stop and search people but they have no right to ask for their identity and movements.

Bears repeating: 5000 pounds and a criminal offense just for not talking to the police.

Reid is planning to push through a counter-terrorism bill next month before he and Blair leave office. As well as the power to stop and question individuals, the home secretary also wants to introduce two new police powers in the name of of combating Islamic terrorism: the power to take documents away for examination even if their value as evidence is not immediately obvious; and the power to remove vehicles in order to examine them.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Well they really only have to ask why a person is going somewhere. They can check the CCTV records to find out where they've been since they got up in the morning.

I wonder what you are supposed to do when they take your car and papers "away" for examination? Stand and wait? Go home and wait? Go to the Police station and wait?

Hmmm...rereading that, it doesn't say papers, it says documents. I guess anything encrypted or looks like it could be some kind of code... even something in a foreign language would suspect.
Keeping a paper record of a running cribbage game could bring a raft of shit. Better back up your documents.

Realistically, they won't be stopping everyone on the street with a lot of questions. But that won't be much consolation to anyone that gets on the wrong side of the local constabulary.

[Beestie]

It is only people who have something to hide or who are up to no good, who should be worried by this legislation.

The police could stop me if they want and ask for ID as long as it makes the UK a safer place to live in.


AH, Newcastle, UK

Honestly, the legislation isn't nearly as frightening as the willingness of some people to just roll over and take the shaft. Quiet desperation indeed.

[TheMercenary]

CCTV is not everywhere.

[xoxoxoBruce]

True, neither are people, but both are getting there.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

True, neither are people, but both are getting there.

Well, I think it is in most places in the cities, some of our UK posters can validate that, but it is not in the thousands of rural areas.

[wolf]

Rural areas don't need CCTV. Rural areas have something cities don't ... nosy neighbors always in your business.

[Cyclefrance]

Funny you should say that Wolf, the topic came up on The News Quiz, a radio comedy panel show last week, and one panellist commented that if the police wanted to know anything about anyone in her street they only had to ask her neighbour 3 houses away.

I suspect that this new legislation will go much the way of the rest - it will fall at the first hurdle - that being the Human Rights Act. Those who really have something to hide will claim immunity under the Act and then spend taxpayers money acquiring legal aid defence representation. The judges have to date teneded to rule in favour of the Act. Sometimes I wonder if this is as much to highlight its aburdity. Those who have nothing to hide will not be bothered one way or the other about being stopped.

MY feeling is that it's just our Tone desperately trying to find another legacy to counter the one that every one associates with him, namely Iraq.

And, yes, we do have CCTV everywhere - not so much in rural areas, although it's creeping even in that direction, but in every place that warrants the name of 'town'. Londoners can expect to be captured on camera at elast 300 times a day - according to the experts (and that was 3 years ago!)

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Cyclefrance

Those who have nothing to hide will not be bothered one way or the other about being stopped.

That's a primary difference between there and here. Whereas Brits might not be annoyed Americans would say, " Get out of my face, I gotta pick Dick at soccer practice, then drop off the dry cleaning, and pick up Jane from ballet lessons, then Drop dick at Judo class then get the baby from daycare, and pick up Chinese for supper and then....OH, GET THE HELL OUTTA MY WAY."

[be-bop]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

That's a primary difference between there and here. Whereas Brits might not be annoyed Americans would say, " Get out of my face, I gotta pick Dick at soccer practice, then drop off the dry cleaning, and pick up Jane from ballet lessons, then Drop dick at Judo class then get the baby from daycare, and pick up Chinese for supper and then....OH, GET THE HELL OUTTA MY WAY."

Maybe so but then you'll get arrested for obstructing thr police in the course of his/her duties,shout too loud then you'll get arrested for breach of the peace.Push the policeman/woman out the way and then you'll be arrested for police assault..now who says the UK is becoming a police state?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Nope, that attitude I described, while half in jest to illustrate our lack of patience with that shit, is exactly why we would howl and litigate to stop it if possible.
That doesn't mean it won't happen here, just not without a fight.

Here cops get yelled at, and my experience is if you don't get personal and abusive, they are pretty tolerant of rants about the system or the injustice of life in general. They are not gods, just people with a job to do and they understand peoples frustrations.

[Cyclefrance]

Any remonstration with the police by an innocent here will probably result in a 'would you mind blowing into this, sir...?', as the person concerned must clearly be under the influence of alcohol.

[DanaC]

Whereas Brits might not be annoyed

The last time we had such laws in place (known as the sus laws) they were a major factor in creating a near warzone of rioting in predominantly poor, black areas. This was because they were disprorportionately employed against black youths, at a time when racial tension was at a high.

Now....we have a situation where racial tensions are once again at a high. This time it's the Asian youth who are likely to be targetted. At a time when racial assaults/insults are rising in our schools and the process of white flight has created a whole new set of ghettoes, with asian communities and white communities leading entirely seperate and distinct lives, I think there is a danger of these measures causing real problems. Already we have had several high profile cases of people being targetted under 'terror' laws, only to discover that their only crime was to be young moslem men. One of them was shot and injured by over enthusiastic police as they were dragging the family out of their home. The police who mistakenly shot the young Brazilian man on the tube station have been allowed to get away without even a reprimand. One of them has even been promoted. They put six bullets into that lad as he lay on the train floor. His crime was to have dark skin and be living in the same block of flats as a person they were watching for.

If the police are able to carry out new stop and search/question powers, they will use them with the groups they feel are most risky: young Asian men. Given that those young Asian men are already experiencing much greater police attention my guess is this is likely to spark a whole new set of riots.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Was that Brazilian the guy running through the station with a backpack?

Oh, anybody that riots doesn't deserve to be British. Smack 'em in their limp upper lip.

[Cyclefrance]

Looks like the initiative is already hitting problems - papers today are full of 'nothing but another Blair legacy attempt', 'Human Rights' and 'legal requirements to stop and search' that would make this latest puff of political wind be nothing more than yet another incoherent burp into the atmosphere.

Another day, no doubt another idea....