Why would one choose to be a soldier?

[Undertoad]

A touching blog entry from an officer stationed in Iraq. I have stolen the money paragraphs below so that you'll want to read the whole thing.

http://thunder6.typepad.com/365_arab...3/the_sat.html

As the silence stretched like a teardrop waiting to fall I broke the silence and told him that I would do it all over again. His face contorted into a mask of disbelief, his jaw drooping slightly from the strain of following this verbal about-face. His lips shaped the word “Why?” but there was no breath to give it voice.

Before answering him I told him about how part of my heart chipped off when I looked into a mass grave in Bosnia. How for days after my dreams were clouded with an image of the very earth opening a yawning pit to engulf the dead, only to choke on their numbers and leave them on the surface half swallowed. I talked about countries where famine and disease left people whose bodies left shadows that gave the illusion you were looking at a photographic negative of a skeleton. About places where the only rule of law was the brutal and unswerving laws of physics and ballistics and the only peace one could hope for was the grave. And the story that did not need telling, the story of our ongoing struggle with insurgents who revel in the misery and deaths they cause our forces and the Iraqis.

As I finished I noticed my mouth was dry and I had to take a long draw of water before continuing. When I slaked my thirst I told SPC Frances to close his eyes and I would tell him why. As he closed his eyes I told him to imagine his young wife, his beautiful infant daughter and the future he wanted for them. He paused a moment and a smile slowly creased his face. As he looked up I caught his eyes and told him a simple truth. I told him that the thin line that separates the two realities isn’t a line on a map or the signature block on a document filled with hollow proclamations. The dividing line between the two kingdoms is a long line of soldiers. And that is why I’m proud to call myself a soldier. Its not about a lack of options, or the size of my paycheck. Its about what kind of world I want to leave for my children if I am lucky enough to be a father.

[zippyt]

I like this guys stance on things , " thin line between life and caos "
Bruce sent me this , it needs passing on ,

Some people still don't understand why military personnel do what they do for a living.This exchange between Senators John Glenn and Senator Howard Metzenbaum is worth reading.Not only is it a pretty impressive impromptu speech, but it's also a good example of one man'sexplanation of why men and women in the armed services do what they do for a living.
This IS a typical, though sad, example of what some who have never served think of the military.

Senator Metzenbaum to Senator Glenn:
"How can you run for Senate when you've never held a real job?"

Senator Glenn:
"I served 23 years in the United States Marine Corps.
I served through two wars. I flew 149 missions. My plane was hit by anti-aircraft fire on 12 different occasions.
I was in the space program. It wasn't my checkbook, Howard; it was my life on the line.
It was not a nine-to-five job, where I took time off to take the daily cash receipts to the bank.

I ask you to go with me ... as I went the other day... to a veteran's hospital and look those men,
with their mangled bodies, in the eye, and tell THEM they didn't hold a job!
You go with me to the Space Program at NASA and go, as I have gone, to the widows and Orphans
of Ed White, Gus Grissom and Roger Chaffee... and you look those kids in the eye and tell them that
their DADS didn't hold a job.
You go with me on Memorial Day and you stand in Arlington National Cemetery, where I have more friends
buried than I'd like to remember, and you watch those waving flags. You stand there, and you think about
this nation, and you tell ME that those people didn't have a job?
I'll tell you, Howard Metzenbaum; you should be on your knees every day of your life thanking God that
there were some men - SOME MEN - who held REAL jobs. And they required a dedication to a purpose
- and a love of country and a dedication to duty - that was more important than life itself.
And their self-sacrifice is what made this country possible.
I HAVE held a job, Howard! What about you?"
For those who don't remember - During WW II, Howard Metzenbaum was an attorneyrepresenting the Communist Party in the USA. Now he's a Senator!
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you are reading it in English thank a Veteran.

[richlevy]

..and yet we end up betraying them. 5 or 10 years down the road we will cut veterans benefits to the point where we will impact those who left pieces of themselves in Iraq. Even our current administration, while publicly praising the armed services, is acting to sacrifice VA services to fund the current conflict and prevent sacrifice by the civilian population/

If you don't think we are capable of this, look up the term "Hooverville".

[Catwoman]

Originally Posted by soldier

And that is why I’m proud to call myself a soldier...Its about what kind of world I want to leave for my children if I am lucky enough to be a father

While the altruistic intentions of soldiers are most honourable, it seems so sad to me that sometimes they are not fighting for freedom, or progress, but for one country's self-interest, for oil or power or money. They risk their lives for a lottery - many wars don't work, lives are lost without progress. They think they're fighting for something - but it is something quite far from the truth. I would never blame a soldier for a government's mistake, but if no one enlisted, we wouldn't lose our soldiers to unwinnable wars.

[404Error]

Originally Posted by Catwoman

... I would never blame a soldier for a government's mistake, but if no one enlisted, we wouldn't lose our soldiers to unwinnable wars.

And you would probably have had to type that in German if that were the case.

[Catwoman]

Originally Posted by 404Error

And you would probably have had to type that in German if that were the case.

So?

[dar512]

I agree that many current operations are business oriented and nothing more.

However, Cat, I suspect that your last response was a pose. I can't believe you'd be blase over England being annexed to a third reich controlled Germany.

[Undertoad]

So?

Are you fucking kidding me. That's the legacy of the antiwar side: it's confused fascism with style. They teach history in your school?

OK, you wouldn't only be typing in German, you'd be subjugated to a violent government, living a desperate life, and millions of your friends and countrymen would be "disappeared" in purges and/or starved to death to maintain control. Are we having fun yet? Did you read the paragraphs I pulled? Any mass graves near you?

If you can't tell whether your side is the side of good you should probably either move or take more interest in your representational government.

[lookout123]

it seems so sad to me that sometimes they are not fighting for freedom, or progress, but for one country's self-interest

are you serious? those of us who have made a career in the military understand something you don't - this is not a "sometimes" thing. the only reason we have a military is to promote our "self-interest". we exist to kill people and blow shit up, to achieve some goal that our government has decided was worthwhile. sometimes they are right, sometimes they are wrong - that isn't the soldiers problem. the soldier's problem is to accomplish the mission and stay alive. end of story.

the military does not exist as a peacekeeping force, that is why there are major problems every time someone in washington or new york, decides that is how they should be utilized. very few people in the military want to be global cops. they want to train most of the time and maybe once or twice in their career do what they are trained to do - kill people and blow shit up.

and as far as your So?

it probably wouldn't be such a bad thing for you if the fascists had taken and kept England, hell you would have more things to complain about, protest, and think of all the material you would have to support your idea that there isn't a real positive point to life.

[Catwoman]

Thought that might provoke.

Planet = cake.
Someone sliced the cake up, and divided it unequally. There is now constant battle over ownership, trying to readdress the balance. One country has lots of slices while many countries have to share the smallest slice between them. Long are the days of empires; it is more financial now than geographical. Nevertheless, disputes continue.

America currently has the biggest slice. 'America' could be called 'China' or 'Russia' or 'Germany'. It doesn't really make any difference to the rest of us. The economical and thus power imbalance will remain regardless of who is on which side of the fence.

As a superpower, America has flaws. Not just a small-rip-in-the-jeans type flaws, but major, devastating policies regarding the environment, munitions etc etc etc. But you can't blame America - whatever it was called, there would be the same overconsumption, security paranoia, constant battle to stay on top. I doubt a German superpower would be that different.

The mass graves, desperate lives and violent government are not unique to Germany Undertoad. Take a look at your own (and Britain's) history, and current activities.

You know enough about me by now to know I wouldn't be advocating fascism/violence/hatred etc etc. Use your intelligence when you respond and go and read 1984.

[Catwoman]

Originally Posted by lookout123

are you serious? those of us who have made a career in the military understand something you don't - this is not a "sometimes" thing. the only reason we have a military is to promote our "self-interest". we exist to kill people and blow shit up...

Finally, some honesty. You're right - I was tip-toeing. Fuck me, this is true and representative of the military - they want to 'kill people and blow shit up'. This I see as a problem. But most people don't. What the fuck? I mean really, what the fuck? Insane, the lot of you.

Originally Posted by lookout123

it probably wouldn't be such a bad thing for you if the fascists had taken and kept England, hell you would have more things to complain about, protest, and think of all the material you would have to support your idea that there isn't a real positive point to life.

Yes, true. And I'm grateful they didn't, because my life is easy. It's great. I have all kinds of choices. BUT MOST OF THE WORLD DOESN'T! And that will always be the way; some will have and some won't. If only some would have less, then some of them could.

[Undertoad]

Take a look at your own (and Britain's) history, and current activities.





We don't make the chart. I suppose we have to try harder.

Are there any mass graves near you?

Now let me address this "cake" theory, because it's a very serious mistake IMO. When you look at the history of the world you see that innovation and progress create wealth, not consume it. For example, with the invention of the integrated circuit chip we have taken the simplest of raw materials (such as sand!) and turned it into machines capable of some really remarkable things.

What we do in these cases is to increase the size of the cake that is cut up. The world's wealth is NOT some sort of "zero-sum game" where the powerful steal the pieces that the less powerful then have no access to. It is NOT NOT NOT true that if one nation has a bigger slice of "cake" that poorer nations have less "cake".

How it ACTUALLY works is that the powerful nations of the world are those who have CREATED the greatest amount through approaches that maximize innovation and human effort.

A hundred years ago, life in the world required 50% of the population to be involved in agriculture, just to produce enough food for all of us. Today, it only requires 2% of the population to be involved in agriculture. The reason is that innovation has increased the productivity of the average person and the average farm.

Now GPS is going to do that again by making it possible to run tractors at night without people on them. The people who used to farm can do other productive things. Voila, wealth is CREATED.

[Catwoman]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

The people who used to farm can do other productive things

This made me laugh. Like what? Watch TV (the average American watches more than 4 hours of TV each day) Sell cars(uneconomical, dangerous, unnecessary)? Kill people?

Oh by the way, mass or intensive farming kills people. Yep, you know the chemicals they put in it (preservatives, colourants, texturisers) - they are bad for you. They create new diseases. I wonder if there are any statistics for death-by-chemical you can put on your chart?

Originally Posted by Undertoad

How it ACTUALLY works is that the powerful nations of the world are those who have CREATED the greatest amount

So? If I found a cure for cancer I wouldn't keep it to myself. Who cares who created it. In advertising we learn not to be precious about ideas. One man for the good of mankind, or does that not apply when there's wealth to be created?

By mass graves I assume you mean wartime/genocide. No. I don't think I've ever seen one. But the poignancy and emotion you probably experienced when you went to visit a piece of ground is not lost on me. Do you really think I'm unsypathetic? I probably care more than you, UT, because I'm AGAINST WAR. It's very, very simple.

[Undertoad]

Yes, "simple" is exactly the word I have for your view of the world.

Look at the chart again and see how many deaths in the 20th Century NOT INCLUDING WARS. Those are the people you don't care about. The people in the mass graves in Bosnia are the people you don't care about. How they got there is no concern of yours as long as they didn't get there in a war. How compassionate of you.

Cars are how people in the US get to their productive workplaces. The US is the most productive nation on earth. "Productivity" is the measure of creating the most out of the least amount of resources.

If your workplace is not productive that's too bad. Most people do things for a living. A lot of Americans work hard all day and then come home exhausted to watch TV all night. You want to fault these people? Fuck you, on their behalf.

Cures for cancer is what we work on when we're not farming all day. Almost all cures have come in the last 100 years when productivity became important. Almost all cures have come from productive nations even though the VAST majority of humans still live in UNproductive ones.

[lookout123]

Fuck me, this is true and representative of the military - they want to 'kill people and blow shit up'.

you will never understand, because you don't want to understand. i have yet to meet anyone in the military who says "i want to kill someone as soon as i get a chance." i have met too many to count who want to do their jobs well, their fellow soldiers, protect themselves, and those that are on their side of whatever conflict is at hand. (in that order). by definition, doing those things requires other people to die. but you go right on believing the military is fully of bloodlusting psychopaths if that makes you feel better.

you live in a pipe dream where you think world peace is achievable if only the nasty capitalists would share whatever they create with everyone without regard for profit and military force is pointless because we can all just talk through our disagreements until we all come to a common understanding what is in the best interest of all.