[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

They refuse to do anything about it.

What can they do about it?

What a load of crap. "We are unsuccessful because we can't easily enter our worst enemy's territory." Can't you look at this one at face value and see how ridiculous it is?

I am looking at it at face value. You can not build a successful agricultural society without land. If you do not have the land, you can not succeed, it is very simple.

Bulldoze, but not indiscriminately. If they are the family of a suicide bomber, or the entrance to an arms-smuggling tunnel, the dozers move in.

Give proof of that, and even that is not an excuse to violate the family's property rights. Do we bulldoze the home the families that have a murderer as a son? Of course not, neither should Israel.

Boo fuckin' hoo.

You are a strong supporter of right to property since you are libertarian right? So why the hell are you defending a group that illegally takes away people's property and sends them to refugee camps? What about the 800,000 people that were kicked out of Israel in 1948, do they not deserve their land or what?

If the United States took your house away and sent you to a incredibly horrible refugee camp you would be screaming bloody murder. Stop with that bullshit.

That's bullshit, but you can imagine how such a notion got started. After all, it's pretty much all bad land... but somehow the Joos made their parts green. Everywhere they worked the land, they turned it green.

People have been living on that land for over 10,000 years, parts of the land is very good for agriculture and some of it isn't, hardly a desert.

When you said "claimed", by the way, I'm sure you meant "taken over as a defensive measure during a defensive war."

Stop with that defensive shit. They knew if they created Israel in that spot the neighboring countries would attack and displacing 800,000 people is not a defensive measure. If I go into a house where I know I will be attacked when I walk in and then I do get attacked and fight back it is not defensive since I am provoking them to attack. Israel should not have been placed in that spot since everyone knew it would cause major problems. They had a choice and refused to make the decisions so in reality Israel created every one of its problems since it could have been avoided.

And really, now that Israel does not occupy southern Lebanon, and has given back Gaza, and kicked Israeli settlers out of their houses and off what they considered to be their land, some of the old talking points are starting to look a little kooky.

Wait, so if I I go into wolf's house and steal something, then go into xoxoxoBruce's house and steal something, then I go into your house and steal something but give it back to you after much protest I should be looked as merciful? I will start a life of crime then.

[quoteDo you want to talk about a people that faced a rough start? How about the Jews? Their starting point was the Holocaust. And after that, most incoming Israelis were unceremoniously kicked out of their previous residence in neighboring Arab countries.[/quote]
The Jews did have a rough start but it doesn't justify their actions. Israel should not have been placed where it was, clear and simple, they walked into all their problems on that regard.

Did they blame the other? They had every right to, didn't they? Practically no people in modern history has had a bigger right to blame the other. And for a while, many of them were steaming mad and pursued outrageous, even terroristic acts and policies.

I will agree with this but it still doesn't excuse their current actions.

But, for the most part, they spent more time building a productive culture, improving themselves and their society, until voila -- they are now so powerful that one can't even remember when they were not the powerful ones. So powerful, that we now hear arguments about how the Jews got a better start, a big advantage.

They did work hard but they were on a much better situation to build a country than Palestine is now.

Six million dead, and the rest in ghettos or kicked out of their countries...

And that excuses them to kill Palestinians and kick them out of their homes in a place that they knew would cause trouble?

US support for Israel did not really start in meaningful quantity until 1973 and didn't really grow large until 1979. Seriously. You could look it up.

I'll agree with that for military help but we have been supporting Israel economically since 1949 or 1951.
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_199...us_support.php

They were given a University! They use it to teach bomb-making methods. They were given television stations! They use them to indoctrinate the kids in hate. They were given loads and loads of money! They used it to buy munitions. They were given the vote! They voted for Hamas.

Hamas does all that stuff and you have a hell of a lot of arrogance to criticize who they vote for when you do not experience what they do. The fact is that Hamas gives an extremely high amount of non-military social services to Palestine and is the only one that guarantees a destruction of Israel (that does not mean destruction as total destruction but just the destruction of the state structure). All the polls I have seen says that most Palestinians do want peace so this does not make sense. Maybe, because most Palestinians can not see peace under Israel, but only when the state is destroyed.

Helpless? Not hardly; when they ask for food aid instead of monetary aid, get back to me.

Hamas is asking for food, and there are many other reasons for their election so this does not necessarily represent the people.