[Chefranden]

Originally posted by MaggieL

But....didn't you just say that your belief about it didn't matter? :-)

I know I can be dense sometimes but I don't understand your confusion.

I don't doubt the islamo-fascists *seriousness*; I take their deadly intent very seriously. Hence this entire thread.

Its good that we can agree on something, even if I don't think that lableing is very productive.

We haven't seen binLaden or Zawahiri themselves flying any airplanes into buildings. And even their minons who did were convinced a martyr's reward awaited them personally at the end of the tunnel. This doesn't demonstrate that the movement as a whole is "principled", any more than Jim Jones or Marshall Applewhite or others of their ilk were. How much time have we all spent studying *their* beliefs for "interesting social insights"--beyond adding to the demagogery HOW-TO?

A few Points

1. Leaders seldom take the role of foot soldier. We didn't see Mr. Bush or even Mr. Rumsfeld off loading from a c5 galaxy with a hundred pound pack and an M-16 either. Though I'd like to see them get the experience they missed back in the 60's no one really expects it to happen. We expect them to stay home and practice their "demagoguery" so we can stay stirred up enough to be willing to kill and maim a few thousand "rag heads" as an answer to our problems.

2. Just because a person or an organization doesn't hold your principles doesn't make them un-principled though people often believe that it does. It seems that is something you may hold in common with bin Laden as he seeks to eliminate you (and the rest of us) because he believes us to be un-principled, just as you believe him to be. You see him as evil and he sees you as evil. You believe that his death will be righteous, and he believes that your death will be righteous. And perhaps you both believe that trial by combat will decide the issue.

3. I wouldn't lump bin Laden or &Co. in with Jim Jones and Marshall Applewhite and their followers. Applewhite stirred only a few 10s of people and Jones only a few hundred, where as bin Laden has stirred millions beyond his immediate group to want to kill and maim a few thousand "infidels" as an answer to their problems.

4. I wouldn't dismiss Islam a souce of social insight because of bin Laden any more then I would dismiss Christianity as such a source because of Jones. (I would dismiss comets though.) Though an athiest, I agree with much that is written in scripture such as: “Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the RE-publicans the same? kjv Matt. 5:43-46 [italics mine] I would like to add something simular from the Koran but I am too ignorant of it.

5. I don't see bin Laden as "evil" but he is an enemy. I will explain that in a differant post if you like, because this one is getting too long.

Of course, they only killed members of their own cult. These folks have higher ambitions than that.

Absolutely! They wish to eliminate evil.