[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by henry quirk

"Oh, I didn't realize your point was let 'em burn and try to keep it from spreading."

My point: folks can 'do' w/out a gov's direction.

Yes they can, everybody chips in and buys the equipment and hires the fireman. Costs more because not everyone will pony up, some will refuse, and some will give a string of excuses. Who's is going to collect the money and disburse it, keep people informed how much the owe because that will change constantly? Sounds like a full time job. Who's going to watch them?

"So you just pay whatever they say you owe"

Kinda like you do when you go to the grocery, or pay taxes. Difference is you can shop around for lower prices with groceries. Try that with taxes.

$10 in gas to save a dollar on groceries, but I know people who do that.
I get 2% off my property tax for paying early.

"we also have private ambulances that charge as much as the lawyers who chase them."

That's the way it works, yeah.

That's expensive.

"So you think if 40% want it someone will provide it cheaper than the currant system? 60%? 80% And still make a profit? Not a chance. A corporation rich enough to fund that kind of operation wouldn't be bothered with that piss ant operation. To make it worth their while nobody could afford it except people who don't need it."

If folks want it, they can have it w/out the gov. I never said it would be cheaper.

Me:I don't want it. Can't see why I should pay a dime into it. You 'do' want it; you pay for it.

You don't seem to care about costs, you must be rich.

"Most people in the real world couldn't come up with enough to pay a surprise $500 bill over and above normal living expenses."

And SS, somehow covers this? Mebbe folks coulda just kept that SS deposit in the first place, saving it as it suited them, investing it as they liked.

Most would get ripped off by shady Nigerian Princes or Bernie Madoffs.

"The last time I was in the hospital I was there from 6AM to about 1:30PM and the bill was over $175,000... +$19 to park."

You had to pay to park? What a rip. None of the places I use make me pay to park. My last bill was two grand. I paid in installments. You can do that if you negotiate. If I'd still had my neat lil catastrophic policy (the one the ACA nullified) the bill woulda been handled that way (privately, w/out the gov).

All the hospitals around here have paid parking garages, some validate though.

"You're dreaming, every available resource is turning people away for lack off capacity."

Evidence, please.

Google "shortage of homeless shelter space"
About 2,170,000 results (0.57 seconds)

"The last numbers I saw were a little over 200,000 homeless citizens, but it's a tough area to get exact numbers."

Why are they homeless?

Because they don't have money to buy or rent.

"OK, where are they?"
Catholic Charitites? In every major city of every state; all over the world.

They don't seem to be making a dent in the problem even in major cities.

"You wrote it."

Cut & paste is not composition.

I didn't say you composed it, two guys in England 300 years ago did.

"Show me."

How? Oh, wait, I did that already by way of the two links.

Yeah that's my mistake. Since your post was long I hit quote and worked down through it so when I got to that I saw...

"I already have, just read everything you've written about the future."

The future: by defintion, hasn't happened yet. How can I be wrong (or you, right) about that?

Because anyone who knows anything about human nature, even you, knows that utopia is impossible.

Originally Posted by henry quirk

"Who? Who's going to fix the roads? Who's going to buy the equipment and materials?"

Who does these things 'now'? The same folks (and a few others) would do it w/out gov oversight. What, people can't organize themselves, pursue common goals w/out 'finer clay' directin' 'em?

Same problem as the fire department, plus making sure the work meets engineering standards to be safe because they will cut corners any way they can.

"When others have to pay to preserve them, that's what's done."

It's deeper than that. Consider: why do some go to great lengths to not rely on others? Why do some go to great lengths to force others to support them? What's the foundational difference between the two?

Why does one live with hardship knowing hardship is the price for autonomy while another not only runs madly from hardship (and autonomy) but works hard to push a leash on his fellows?

Why do some wanna take care of themselves while others want to be taken care of?

Because some have a anti-social nature, and see John Wayne in every mirror. Feel they are better than the hoards and foolish enough to go thirsty rather than drink from the common well. The type who fought against tax funded public education, and public works like sanitation that has improved life for everyone. Hardly any rivers catch fire anymore, and most places you don't need your headlights at noon. It wasn't that long ago that wasn't true.

Others (most) understand the ways and means of civilization and the advantage of cooperation in making the quality of life better for everyone. That's more and more important as the world becomes more crowded.