[Chewbaccus]

This thread reminded me of a discussion I had with a good friend - some old-timers here may remember him, AlphaGeek? - on this subject. The following was developed after a freeform thought session at about four, five in the morning a month back. Here goes:

(PS: If something like this was touched on already, my apologies. I gotta run soon, so poring over six pages of philosophy is not in the cards.)

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Steve (4:09:56 AM): if you believe in heaven, it is total satisfaction, which is the lack of desire and feeling....if you don't believe in heaven, then when you die, you simply cease to exist

Before I begin, I'd like to point out that it's remarkable how many times I've been metaphysically hit upside the head in the immediately pre-dawn hours. Continuing.

I've been mulling over that statement you made there, and it struck me. Throughout upbringing, we are inculcated with the belief (the Heaven belief, precisely) that when we die, we go to a paradise world, where our every need and want is catered to. However, in this scenario, we are still ourselves. We, to our core, are no different for all eternity. But how can that be? We, as humans, are defined by needs and wants; by pressures and standards and on and on and on. To quote Biff from Lamb (I swear, that book is so underappreciated. There really should be a monument built to it.): "Without the past, where's the guilt? And without the future, where's the dread? And without guilt and dread, who am I?"

Perhaps that's what Hell truly is: being as you are, being human, for eternity. The knowledge that stars will burn out, alien civilizations and species will be born, rise, fall, and wither away, and whole galaxies will spin into oblivion before you even have a hope of being satisfied. I remember sitting in a guidance counselor's office after he finished reading a story about a particularly tragic teen suicide, and he asked me how - why - people like me could turn to such an end. I pointed to a poster behind him that read something to the effect that these years - high school - were the best we - students - would ever have and told him that that was the reason. Things like that. He didn't get it, so I elaborated: The oldest high school student, ideally, was eighteen years old. The average American lives to an age of mid-70s. I told him that what that poster was saying to us was that we can live the rest of our lives, an entire half-century, and it wasn't going to get any better than right now. The people, the food, the environment, the experiences, none of them were going to improve over fifty years. That that poster was telling us we can live out the rest of our years on this planet, and nothing we do, nowhere we go, will measure up to this time. I told him that what that poster was telling us was the rest of our lives are just not worth it. He understood, and that's just looking at the next fifty years. Imagine looking out onto infinity with that idea in your head. That sounds rather hellish to me.

If you no longer have to worry, then you are no longer really human. We've established this, I imagine. But if you reach that plane of existence, where you're not even human, then what are you? Do you remember what you once were? Do you even care? Presumably not, as such a care would be nullified in this state of existence. That rather unnerves me though, the thought of actually changing species. I mean, it's not quite like evolution. There, you're a member of the new batch right out the gate, the mutation doesn't happen while you're conscious of your prior state. Again, that I'm thinking this is proof positive I'm human, I suppose.

Steve, you drew the line at belief and not in heaven. That those that do experience satisfaction, the lack of desire and feeling. And those that don't, cease to be. I think my ultimate point here, if any is to be found, is thus: Are the two necessarily mutually exclusive?