[BigV]

I love this thread.

**I hasten to add that I do NOT love the pain and the bullshit orthodoc (and others) suffer.**

But I do love hearing from my wise friends.

ortho, you do have many friends here, and they are, as a group, as smart and strong and insightful and articulate and compassionate as any group of people I've ever had the pleasure of knowing, much less belonging to. I learn from them, and from you. I don't always agree with what I hear, for example, your remark that "your kids are adults; your job is done". I think Griff's take is much closer to the mark, that we're never fully formed people, that we, all of us, parents and children alike, can continue to grow and learn.

I have adult children too, indeed, I, myself, am an adult child of my mom (and dad, duh, but dad's dead now, ... anyhow). And I am still learning my way through life; they are still learning their way through life. Our paths are not parallel, but they are congruent. Mistakes, triumphs, hard work, continuous effort. Chances to see beauty and to have fun, they're all there for all of us. Like you, I have expectations of my kids that are in many cases higher than where they're at. I have ideals for them to live UP to, like taking personal responsibility. But only in fair proportion, only what's appropriate. Again, that's as true valid for me as it for them.

And sometimes, the expectations are exceeded. The successes my kids make for themselves are so gratifying to witness. Their rewards for their hard work, I'm so happy to see that. I don't know how they managed, and it's true, they'll never know how much blood, sweat, and tears I put into their lives. That's... that's how it is.

It's true that the response described by classic frequently comes to mind when I'm faced with what I feel is an unreasonable response on the part of my kids (or extended family for that matter). They're ALL too big to spank anymore, but I still permit myself a nostalgic nod toward that dusty, long-unused tool. Now, I have to reason with them. (insert giant eyeroll here). While it lacks the visceral satisfactions of other means of persuasion, it does prove effective, and that is what I'm striving for.

I'm still learning, and so are they. But the learning is UP TO THEM, it's not on me to "make them" learn. Sure, you're still their parent, sure, your job isn't done, but it has changed. Now the tools they've been given must be employed, by them, to continue to grow. They'll get there. For now, they're still striving upward toward your expectations. Let them strive, it makes them strong.