[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by warch
I suggest that other items- were not constant, and were not considered in the analysis. Maybe increasing the number of gated retirement communities lowered crime. Or maybe it was the extra funding the Catholic missions received. Or maybe there were less days over 98 deg. But as proof of causation, its not clear, its correlation that proves nothing. You can measure a lower rate of criminal incidents,(assuming the definition of criminal incidents remains consistent), but targeting the probable cause of the change take more control. Here is some interesting info on John Lott whose study is most often sited

That's just one guy who has apparently done studies. There are a lot more out there. Of course that story says nothing about the positive aspects involved in CCW...sounds like a bunch of anti-gun nazis up there.

I just said that last part to point out that the pendulum swings both ways.

Chicago became the murder capital of the US during a time of prosperity in this country. Now, I'm sure that there are several reasons why the murder rate went up in Chicago...but if you live in a city of 3 million people, where cops have 9 million things to do, and the populace is unarmed...don't you think the criminals would use that to their advantage?

Would an armed civic response, or the threat of one, have prevented the shooting? Nah. If crossfire had broken out would more of us at the bus stop been at higher risk of injury? Yeah.

That's just your opinion though...you really don't know if that would happen or not.

So far, the main impact I can see of the conceal and carry laws in MN is a boom in sales of signs that state "(name of establishment) bans guns in these premises" (They cant say "on" unless you own the property.) Gun ban signs are posted everywhere- small businesses, churches, restaurants, bars, theaters, schools including this University, Xcel energy center hockey games, the state fair grounds, city hall, the state capital, . You can pack it in the parking lot. Also sited at most community gatherings "Minnesotans against getting shot" petitions to have the law repealed.

But has there been an increase in violent crime or violence involving guns since CCW went into effect?

Gun deaths continue - the Cold Spring school shooting . The shooter was talked down by an unarmed teacher. Got his gun from home where it was a legal purchase- Dad's in law enforcement. This is now a familiar scenario. Troubled kids with access to this tool will use it.

That situation doesn't relate to the CCW issue though. It sounds like the dad had the piece before CCW went into effect, so it's not like that had anything to do with the kid losing his mind. That could have happened at any time.

Kids have had access to guns for a while now. I would imagine that it's not too terribly hard to get a piece on the shadier streets in Minneapolis or St. Paul. If you want a gun bad enough, you'll get it...or get caught.

And a few weeks back a woman was killed and her lawyer shot through the neck at a court hearing, the hand gun was legally purchased by the shooter, a cousin of the victim. The shooter lured the two to a court house she knew didnt install metal detectors. The gun ban sign didnt deter her actions. Again crossfire in lobby wouldnt have done much preventively.

But that's not the fault of the CCW law. That's just another moron being criminal...and the failure of whatever level of government involved to have adequate security.

Crimes involving guns are not going to disappear...we have them here all the time. And you don't even have to believe the stats...b/c each side loves to skew 'em their way.

But let me put it to you this way, since you come across as a Democrat or liberal.

You would be outraged if minorities weren't given the protection afforded to them in the Civil Rights Act of 1964. You'd be fuming if the courts tried to limit our 1st Amendment rights through something like a Mapplethorpe exhibit.

You see, the Democrats love to give people things...even if it costs taxpayers a ton of money. But yet, most Democrats and liberals seem to want to take guns away from people. It clearly seems like a 2nd Amendment violation to me, but the Democrats will try and justify it to no end. And I'm not saying this is necessarily you, warch, but that shit irks me to no end. That's as bad as conservatives trying to inject morality into our society...b/c they think it's the right thing for everyone.

People who suffer moments of unstablity, or consider suicide, or are immature, stupid and curious, or are murderous, when there are guns available, will use this effective tool on themselves and others. My concern is that a concealed handgun law will not make communities safer, but rather make more handguns more available to all imperfect audiences.

How is this going to happen? Particularly when the laws involving the purchase of guns have not changed.

People doing stupid shit with guns on themselves isn't going to change just because of CCW. As far as to others, it won't go away, but the chances of one getting away with it are going to shrink. After all, you never know who has a gun.

Plus, it's not really easy to get a CCW license...at least from what I've seen. There's a lot of hoops to go through. Does that help cut down on the number of idgits that get guns? Based on what I know, I'd say it helps.

But we're talking about good law-abiding citizens who legally want to protect themselves in case shit jumps off. Sure, some folks probably get a swollen head from having a piece, but that's the exception and not the rule. Guns are serious things--they're not taken lightly by most Joe Q. Publics. Not to mention, some states don't give a whole lot of leeway as to reasonable use of a firearm in a dangerous situation--I know Missouri's are rather narrow.

You've lived in two states previous to MN with CCW. Austin is generally considered one of the safest cities around...and Texas has some incredibly "loose" gun laws. Did you feel particularly nervous while living in Texas? I'm going to wager "no."

You don't hear about people going apeshit with guns in the heat of the moment too often--the woman in Alabama a few years ago comes to mind. It's sorta like airplane crashes to me--for every plane that crashes, thousands more take off and land safely. With guns, for every nutjob that goes retarded with one, there are way WAY more that are responsible with theirs.

Bottom line--guns are good, Warch is a good egg, if only a bit misguided or confused.