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sugarpop · 04-18-2009, 09:29 PM

You can read the memos here... http://www.aclu.org/safefree/general/olc_memos.html

This one defines torture and what they were allowed to do...
http://luxmedia.vo.llnwd.net/o10/cli...2002_bybee.pdf

It says they can deprive someone of sleep for 11 days. As someone who suffers from sleep disorders, I can tell you that sleep deprivation is bad. Very, very bad. I can't even imagine what would happen if I was completely deprived of sleep for 11 days, or even for 7 days. For one thing, you start hallucinating.

The stress positions, I don't know if any of you have ever tried to stay in one position, without moving, for long periods of time. When I took kundalini yoga, we used to stay in one position for about 15-20 minutes at a time. It's a lot harder than it sounds. Your muscles start aching really bad. It doesn't say how long they were allowed to do this, but I imagine it's a lot longer than 20 minutes.

The confinement with insects that you are afraid of, they were allowed to do that up to 18 hours. If I was locked inside a small container with cockroaches, I would have a freaking heart attack.

The waterboarding, that was allowed for as long as 20 hours at a time. Can you imagine feeling like you were drowing for 20 hours?

It goes on to explain the definition of torture...

Section 2340 makes it a criminal offense for any person "outside of the United States [to] commit or attempt to commit torture."

Section 2340(1) defines torture as:
an act committed by a person acting under the color' of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to Lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody of physical control.

18 USC. § 2340(1). As ·we outlined in our opinion on standards of conduct under Section 2340A, a violation of2340A requires a showing that: (1) the torture occurred outside the United States; (2) the defendant acted under the color of law; (3) the victim 'was within the defendant's custody or control; (4) the defendant specifically intended to inflict severe pain or suffering; and (5) that the acted inflicted severe pain or suffering...

You have asked us to assume that Zubayadah is being held outside the United States, Zubayadah is within U.S. custody, and the interrogators are acting under the color of law. At issue is whether the last two elements would be met by the use of the proposed procedures, namely, whether those using these procedures would have the requisite mental state and whether these procedures would inflict severe pain or suffering within the meaning of the statute.

Severe Pain or Suffering In order for pain or suffering to rise to the level of torture, the statute requires that it be severe. As we have previousty explained, this reaches only extreme acts. See id. at 13. Nonetheless, drawing upon cases under the Torture Victim Protection Act (TVPA), which has a definition of torture that is similar to Section 2340"s definition, we found that a single event of sufficiently intense pain may fall within this prohibition...

...We next consider whether the use of these techniques would inflict severe mental pain or suffering within the meaning of Section 2340. Section 2340 defines severe mental pain or suffering as "the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from" one of several predicate acts. 12 U.S.c. § 2340(2). predicate acts are: (1) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering; (2) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application of mind-altering substances of other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality; (3) the threat of imminent death; or (4) the threat that any of the preceding acts will be done to another person. See 18 U.S.C. § 2340(2)(AJ-{D). As we have explained, this list of predicate acts is exclusive. Sec Section 2340A Memorandum at 8. No other acts can support 2 charge under Section 2340 based on the infliction of severe mental pain or suffering. Thus, if the methods that you have described do not either in and of themselves constitute one of these acts or as a course of conduct fulfill the predicate act requiremcnt, the prohibition has not been violated. See ia. Before addressing these techniques, we note that it is plain that none of these proceedures involves a threat to any third party, the use of any kind of drugs, or for the reasons described above, the infliction of severe physical pain. Thus, the question is whether any of these acts, separately or as a course of conduct, constitutes a threat of severe physical pain or suffering, a procedure designed to disrupt profoundly the senses, or a threat of imminent death...

From that description, it seems pretty clear to me that what they did WAS most definitely torture.

04-18-2009, 09:29 PM	#26
sugarpop Professor Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: the edge of the abyss Posts: 1,947	You can read the memos here... http://www.aclu.org/safefree/general/olc_memos.html This one defines torture and what they were allowed to do... http://luxmedia.vo.llnwd.net/o10/cli...2002_bybee.pdf It says they can deprive someone of sleep for 11 days. As someone who suffers from sleep disorders, I can tell you that sleep deprivation is bad. Very, very bad. I can't even imagine what would happen if I was completely deprived of sleep for 11 days, or even for 7 days. For one thing, you start hallucinating. The stress positions, I don't know if any of you have ever tried to stay in one position, without moving, for long periods of time. When I took kundalini yoga, we used to stay in one position for about 15-20 minutes at a time. It's a lot harder than it sounds. Your muscles start aching really bad. It doesn't say how long they were allowed to do this, but I imagine it's a lot longer than 20 minutes. The confinement with insects that you are afraid of, they were allowed to do that up to 18 hours. If I was locked inside a small container with cockroaches, I would have a freaking heart attack. The waterboarding, that was allowed for as long as 20 hours at a time. Can you imagine feeling like you were drowing for 20 hours? It goes on to explain the definition of torture... Section 2340 makes it a criminal offense for any person "outside of the United States [to] commit or attempt to commit torture." Section 2340(1) defines torture as: an act committed by a person acting under the color' of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to Lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody of physical control. 18 USC. § 2340(1). As ·we outlined in our opinion on standards of conduct under Section 2340A, a violation of2340A requires a showing that: (1) the torture occurred outside the United States; (2) the defendant acted under the color of law; (3) the victim 'was within the defendant's custody or control; (4) the defendant specifically intended to inflict severe pain or suffering; and (5) that the acted inflicted severe pain or suffering... You have asked us to assume that Zubayadah is being held outside the United States, Zubayadah is within U.S. custody, and the interrogators are acting under the color of law. At issue is whether the last two elements would be met by the use of the proposed procedures, namely, whether those using these procedures would have the requisite mental state and whether these procedures would inflict severe pain or suffering within the meaning of the statute. Severe Pain or Suffering In order for pain or suffering to rise to the level of torture, the statute requires that it be severe. As we have previousty explained, this reaches only extreme acts. See id. at 13. Nonetheless, drawing upon cases under the Torture Victim Protection Act (TVPA), which has a definition of torture that is similar to Section 2340"s definition, we found that a single event of sufficiently intense pain may fall within this prohibition... ...We next consider whether the use of these techniques would inflict severe mental pain or suffering within the meaning of Section 2340. Section 2340 defines severe mental pain or suffering as "the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from" one of several predicate acts. 12 U.S.c. § 2340(2). predicate acts are: (1) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering; (2) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application of mind-altering substances of other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality; (3) the threat of imminent death; or (4) the threat that any of the preceding acts will be done to another person. See 18 U.S.C. § 2340(2)(AJ-{D). As we have explained, this list of predicate acts is exclusive. Sec Section 2340A Memorandum at 8. No other acts can support 2 charge under Section 2340 based on the infliction of severe mental pain or suffering. Thus, if the methods that you have described do not either in and of themselves constitute one of these acts or as a course of conduct fulfill the predicate act requiremcnt, the prohibition has not been violated. See ia. Before addressing these techniques, we note that it is plain that none of these proceedures involves a threat to any third party, the use of any kind of drugs, or for the reasons described above, the infliction of severe physical pain. Thus, the question is whether any of these acts, separately or as a course of conduct, constitutes a threat of severe physical pain or suffering, a procedure designed to disrupt profoundly the senses, or a threat of imminent death... From that description, it seems pretty clear to me that what they did WAS most definitely torture.