[quzah]

Originally posted by joydriven
This is a very interesting self-contradiction.

There is no contradiction. If there is said "God of the Bible", then I find him to be ultimately cruel and evil. I don't know about you, but I find the following to be much "less cruel" and "less evil", perhaps even kind:

Create some peons. Give them a choice: Spend forever with me in this fab paradise, or spend forever with out me, in an equally fab paradise. Naturally, people should want to be with me, because I'm not a heartless, cruel bastard, but if they choose not to do so, I'll not punnish them for it.

But what the hell do I know, I'm just a mortal, right?

Originally posted by joydriven
The one way is offensive to anyone since it requires humility to realize that we don't dictate how we can enter God's heaven.

It has nothing to do with humility. It has to do with kindness. I find it unkind to punnish the multitudes just because they don't happen to follow blindly with whatever I tell them to. But then, what the hell do I know.

Originally posted by joydriven
If you come in my house and I have a house rule that requires the removal of your shoes, you would very likely submit to that or have a pretty good reason why not.

Flawed analogy. You're good with those.

A more accurate analogy would be you bringing me over to your house, waiting until I'm inside, then telling me to remove your shoes or you'll beat the shit out of me. And that, I cannot leave until either one of those happens. I either remove my shoes, or you beat my ass.

That is an accurate analogy. We were born, without being given the option, and once here, we have to follow the rules that only a smattering of people know, and if we don't, we're eternally punnished.

I also find it amusing how all of my points are dodged. Sure, you have faith, great. But no answers for the questions like "Well what about all the people for centuries who didn't have any way possible to hear this wonderful religion?"

Originally posted by joydriven
If God indeed created heaven and earth and all the inhabitants and so on, he does indeed have the prerogative to condemn/forgive/glorify those who submit to his conditions.

I didn't say he didn't have that choice. He can do whatever he feels like and no one can do a thing about it except bend to his will. But don't you dare try and force feed me the fact that he loves everyone so much that he did this and that. If he loved people that much, he wouldn't have created hell. There is no reason at all to have a hell, other than the fact that he feels like it.

No, all people aren't great and good. Far from it. But don't you dare equate people such as the oh, Ghandi, and Hitler. In your version of God, since they both didn't believe (assuming, I was neither one when they died, so I don't know their final thoughs or personal assessment of the next world, next life, hell, heaven, whatever you feel like calling it) in your version of the Bible's god, they are both in hell saying "Hi" to eachother.

I imagine the meeting went something like:

Hitler: "Hi, what did you do to end up here?"
Ghandi: "Well, I had a different belief system."
Hitler: "Ah, me too, but in addition to that, I lead the world to the slaughter of millions. Glad to make your acquaintance."
Ghandi: "Yeah, just great."

Originally posted by joydriven
That's nothing of their own merit, so the mentality is indeed NOT "you're fucked and i'm not"

Oh you're so right. What do I know about Christians, right? I've never even seen one![/sarcasm]

Originally posted by joydriven
You say that God is "blatantly heartless and cruel." I ask you, upon what absolute moral authority do you stand in judgment of God's actions? What absolute moral measuring stick do you measure his heartlessness and cruelty with?

Yes. My own. You see, we as people seem to do that. We look at things and make up or own minds about them. Or at least, that's what you'd have me believe.

I'm sorry, I really really am if you don't see the concept of hell as cruel. I really really pitty you. No, there is no sarcasm in this statement what so ever. I really really pitty you.

Originally posted by joydriven
So maybe you believe there's an ultimate creator being, but not the God of the Bible. (This seems to be your view, since you consider only bits and pieces rather than the whole Bible as you make your evaluatory statements about God.) And you just don't like what you're seeing of him. Again, you are harking back to your personal experience. Is it possible for you to acknowledge that your experience might be limited and might just not be enough? That there may be something beyond your comprehension out there? That your refusal to spend eternity with the God of the Bible IS the foundation of your self-damnation? We don't get sent to hell. We work our way there.

It has absolutely nothing to do with something being greater than me. I really could care less if there is some ultimate creator of everything. What turned me completely off about the Christian faith was two actual things:
1) The judgemental people themselves. And if you can't see that you are, again, I pitty you.
2) The concept that just because I don't happen to believe the "right thing" means I suffer endlessly.

I refuse to belong to something that forces me to get everyone to bend to my way of thinking or else they get forever damned. If I end up there because of it, so be it. It's a god damn shame, because I'm not that bad a person. But then, it doesn't matter if you're a hateful, homicidal, mass murderer, as long as you change your point of view at the last second.

Originally posted by joydriven
It's ironic that most of mankind's reaction to God seems to be shaking a puny God-made fist in the face of God.

No. It's anger coupled with sorrow, at what a waste he has made of the human species. Just because over five billion people don't happen to perfectly agree with said rules, they're all being punished.

That is my problem with said religion. It's just too bad I guess that everyone out there can't be so narrow minded as you. If they were, a lot more would be "going to heaven".


Quzah.