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aimeecc · 01-07-2008, 02:56 PM

Although this discourse is interesting, I will point to the obvious - you will never agree nor see things through the others eyes. But unlike the Kenyans, the two of you aren't going to kill each other, then have your family kill the others family, then ravage the land the others family lived on.
I spent 6 months in Africa. I consider myself a liberal, or maybe a conservative liberal, or maybe a libertarian. Anyway, after 6 months there I have come to the conclusion the west (USA and western Europe) should leave en masse. CENTURIES of aid to them have done nothing. You can say the aid had an agenda behind it, but we (collectively) have built schools only to have them turn into squatting huts. Dug wells only to have one tribe refuse to let another tribe use it, and then when it breaks, the few people we taught how to fix it are either dead and taught no one else, or they've forgotten. We send food, to have one tribe use it as a weapon against another. We (collectively) have not been able to convince them to rise above their tribal roots - something that was accomplished in Europe (to a greater or lesser extent, arguably, depending on location) following the Peace of Westphalia in 1648. I had an Ethiopian Muslim tell me woman are lazy and should have no rights - all while I watched the women carry loads of sticks on their backs to go to the market to sell as firewood so they can feed their children, while the men were busy chewing quat (a drug) and sitting in a drug induced stupor. I went to the dedication of a new school - and watched the mayor of the town ask the aid organization "what are you giving me next?"
After centuries of aid, what the preponderance of the people in Africa know is that wait and the westerners will give you food. Our centuries of aid have created a continent that expects one hand out after another. I can't blame them - its all they know. But it needs to stop. After centuries of trying to bring them from tribal roots and trying to help them become self sustaining, and all of this has failed - maybe we should stop trying and let them solve it on their own. Maybe coming to know that America or England or France isn't going to drop of tons of rice will make them become self sustaining.
BTW, UN forces are not on "stand by" waiting to go to a crisis. There were no large indicators violence was going to happen to this degree. Kenya did not ask for UN help. So, how could the UN have responded? Anyone think of that?
As far as references to Darfur, the AU peacekeepers there are under a limited mandate that limits their involvement, and are ill trainined and equipped to deal with the mess. The main reason the forces are their is because the providing nations receive money for sending troops there. And its not as simple as red vs white. There are over 26 warring factions. An ill-trained and poorly equipped force definitely can't handle that, and quite frankly, neither can the US or any other western nation.

01-07-2008, 02:56 PM	#68
aimeecc Super Intendent Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Arlington, VA Posts: 249	Although this discourse is interesting, I will point to the obvious - you will never agree nor see things through the others eyes. But unlike the Kenyans, the two of you aren't going to kill each other, then have your family kill the others family, then ravage the land the others family lived on. I spent 6 months in Africa. I consider myself a liberal, or maybe a conservative liberal, or maybe a libertarian. Anyway, after 6 months there I have come to the conclusion the west (USA and western Europe) should leave en masse. CENTURIES of aid to them have done nothing. You can say the aid had an agenda behind it, but we (collectively) have built schools only to have them turn into squatting huts. Dug wells only to have one tribe refuse to let another tribe use it, and then when it breaks, the few people we taught how to fix it are either dead and taught no one else, or they've forgotten. We send food, to have one tribe use it as a weapon against another. We (collectively) have not been able to convince them to rise above their tribal roots - something that was accomplished in Europe (to a greater or lesser extent, arguably, depending on location) following the Peace of Westphalia in 1648. I had an Ethiopian Muslim tell me woman are lazy and should have no rights - all while I watched the women carry loads of sticks on their backs to go to the market to sell as firewood so they can feed their children, while the men were busy chewing quat (a drug) and sitting in a drug induced stupor. I went to the dedication of a new school - and watched the mayor of the town ask the aid organization "what are you giving me next?" After centuries of aid, what the preponderance of the people in Africa know is that wait and the westerners will give you food. Our centuries of aid have created a continent that expects one hand out after another. I can't blame them - its all they know. But it needs to stop. After centuries of trying to bring them from tribal roots and trying to help them become self sustaining, and all of this has failed - maybe we should stop trying and let them solve it on their own. Maybe coming to know that America or England or France isn't going to drop of tons of rice will make them become self sustaining. BTW, UN forces are not on "stand by" waiting to go to a crisis. There were no large indicators violence was going to happen to this degree. Kenya did not ask for UN help. So, how could the UN have responded? Anyone think of that? As far as references to Darfur, the AU peacekeepers there are under a limited mandate that limits their involvement, and are ill trainined and equipped to deal with the mess. The main reason the forces are their is because the providing nations receive money for sending troops there. And its not as simple as red vs white. There are over 26 warring factions. An ill-trained and poorly equipped force definitely can't handle that, and quite frankly, neither can the US or any other western nation.