[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by classicman

Are you really gonna bring up this crap?

Crap? Is it not true?

#1 America's poor have it much better than virtually any other country.

First, I'm really tired of the "the poor shouldn't be complaining because they have it better than other countries" reasoning. Its just a cop-out. If we have a problem in our country, no matter how it relates to other countries, we should try to fix it in a reasonable manner.

Second, do you know how the poor compare to other first-world countries?

Yes blacks were used as slave labor - IIRC we abolished that, right?

So you think everything is going to be just fine if when we stopped slavery? Everyone would like that to be the case, but it just isn't true. Blacks still represent the underprivileged class and there are still racial disparities as much as we would like to ignore and blame them on blacks.

Also, you are making it sound like we did blacks a favor by freeing them?

Did we take the land from the indians? Yes and your point is?

Acknowledge the fact that the only reason you can live your life like it is today is because we took stole from, killed, and deceived the American Indians. You didn't kill anyone, but you are benefiting from your ancestors killing them.

ok, fine start naming some other "great countries" which did not exploit some other group to advance their own ideals. I'll wait.

There are no "great countries" that haven't exploited other countries or have benefited of the exploitation of others. America is no different. If I wanted to push the case, I would just talk about the level of exploitation but that would get too messy.

I think that America does a hell of a lot for the world as a whole and you are focusing on much of the negativity of the past. Did "America" make mistakes and do bad things, of course, but I think we have gone a long way to learn from and rectify them.

But how do you know we have rectified them?

I'll give you a hypothetical example. Lets say me and you are running a race, 100 meter dash. And because I want the upper hand, I break your leg right before the race. Now, because I did that, I got disqualified and someone else is taking my place and the race is set for the next day. But, because you have a broken leg, the race can never be fair. If we give you a head start, the other guy will complain saying that "he didn't break your leg so he shouldn't be penalized for it" and if you don't get a head start, you will be at a very steep disadvantage.

Now here is the question. By disqualifying me from the race, did we rectify the situation? By giving you a head start, did we rectify the situation? The answer to both the questions are no. The only way the situation will be rectified is when your leg heals, and that comes with time. In the meantime, my replacement will still be benefiting off my misdeeds no matter what his original views are. That is the problem.

That is why there is really no way of rectifying many of the situations that are present today. Yes, we are not doing the misdeeds that we have done in the past, but we are still benefiting from them and there is very little anyone can do about it except trying to speed of the healing process, which ironically usually does the opposite.

But yes, I have been focusing more on the negative parts just as you have been focusing on the positive parts. There is no need from me to mention the positive parts because those are not needed for my argument, but notice how I don't deny them either. If we are arguing over abortion, why would put out an argument for your side? The point of my argument is to say that America has done its fair share of misdeeds and then shouldn't be labeled a "good" country. Everyone knows of America's positive effects, so it is irrelevant using them in my argument. And please don't take me as we are a "bad" country either. We are as I said numerous times, a country that is just protecting our own interests, very little good or evil can come from that statement.