[Griff]

Admittedly, I wasn't following the arguement to closely. From what I read, I thought you both were intentionally misunderstanding each other (Radars personality makes that inevitable). There are lottsa holes in the natural rights argument, yours about which rights are counted among them is especially important. I'd add my own doubts about natural rights in a godless universe which is Radars angle.

What I'm left with is the Bill of Rights and the original restrictions on government found in the constitution. I don't much like the alternative to strict constitutionalism, which is todays reality, that all activity is the perview of the government. We may think its not because of the positive trend you note at the state level, but if its a choice politicians can make it is governments business. Anyway I'm rambling so I'll just stop.