[Cicero]

Originally Posted by DanaC

That's not actually what I said Cicero. Nor was it a bait and switch tactic, it was a genuine observation.

The problem is not that I believe you to operate within a solely American mindset. The difficulty I have is that both you and I are operating from a different cultural understanding and conception of the world and that affects many of our base assumptions, cultural references and linguistic concepts.

If one of us was speaking in English and the other in French, we would find some concepts simply don't translate exactly between the languages. We are linked by language, but there are differences in emphasis and understanding even of that language.

You say you think harm is a constant. I say the very concept of harm is cultural. For the most part your culture and mine, has a broadly similar conception of harm, but it is not absolutely the same. The principles on which our societies are based are different. That doesn't mean we don't have, again, broad similarities, but there are certain basic concepts which your culture values more highly than they are in ours and vice versa.

When will enough be enough? Again, I ask you, enough of what? I do not percieve the problems you have raised, as problematic. There is much in my country that does concern me, and much of it is about loss of civil liberties and a corresponding rise in governmental rights over individuals. I do not see that publically demanded CCTV, non-mandatory drug tests as a condition of entry to a pub, or tracking and intelligence gathering on suspected criminals, fall into that area of concern.

ID cards, that bothers me. National DNA database where everybody is listed, that bothers me. Keeping a camera trained on a town centre or estate where gangs of youths have made it a no go zone, or shops are regularly targetted by arsonists....that's protection.

Alright Dana, let me pose the question properly and I will probably get an answer more directed at the actual subject I am trying badly to debate!

If we can agree that your society is monitoring the daily activities of it's public...I can ask.......Is it ok to view the insides of private residences? Of "criminals" even? There is a debate here (in the US)of "resonable expectation of privacy". What if...now what if the police in your neighborhood decided to do their beat and use this power of technology to see the insides of homes of "criminals"? And otherwise!!
Is this ok?
The United States thinks so(that this is ok) because a "reasonable expectation of privacy" is insulateing your home now. They no longer need probable cause to engage in these activities. If you would not like to be viewed along with the contents of your home, you have to provide the proper amount of insulation to have a "reasonable expectation of privacy".....If this happens in your country (and I doubt that it's not) and it is accepted by your people...Where would you stand on this issue? (Dana)


Like my "culture" there is no doubt that there is a resident right to privacy group that has something to say about this issue that is not the majority opinion. Is majority rule always the right decision? Once these insults to civil liberties are approved by your people, like mine, it will not stop there....You have been fooled into thinking that it was your vote in the first place. Knaivery.

Those databases that you don't like? I'm sorry, but CCTV likely has facial recognition and you are already in one. All it will take is your DNA match to complete the profile which has already been done because you probably visit a doctor's office that sends your samples and tissues elsewhere. Yeah...this has been done because you are likely going to see someone for your skin condition. (Just like the US) The databases have been linked. Nationally and internationally. Not that there is enough people yet to keep up with the databases, nor is there enough funding...but give it time. This is just the beginning . Your CCTV's are a wolf in sheeps clothing. There is an eye and a bunny....unfortunately you and I are bunnys. Whether you agreed or know or not. The only difference in our culture on this issue as that I do not agree, and I do not think that the real crime is misdemeanor bicycle riding of Londoners. "My culture" doesn't even agree with me, for the most part, so don't beg to differ on "my culture". The fact that I have a culture is debateable.

The "culture" you are branding me with...who's is it? Do you even know where I am from?!? For crying out loud.......Dana, I respect you for what you do and I can identify with you on many levels...where is this disconnect that says there is a disconnect because I am living in the Southwest United States?!? Yes, I have cultural differences but you would first have to tell me what and where my culture is....Has someone armed you with these facts?!? Ok...I'll slow down. This is a rant. Everyone else shut it.

If you are fighting for civil liberties Dana...Can you not see the progression of threats to them? I think you have blinders on and you think I am a trifle american. What more can be said?

Other than: We agree to disagree. But I've never been happy with such agreements because no one wins...hell we can't even get a clear understanding that way...but if that's where we are headed I'll give you that "out".

Yes.....maybe you are too absorbed in your culture to see other sides...but wasn't it you who said that you have a talent that can speak to many sides? I think that it's true......

So what of that? Can you fill your own shoes and say 'maybe I can take another perspectiveist view and see how it looks from there'. Fill the shoes you have given me. Take a look around for heaven's sake. It may not be accurate but at least you'd climb out of the culture closet.

And I would also like to add that I love that Dana (thus far) so everyone, put your claws back in. I just have a funny way of showing it.