[Deuce]

Originally Posted by kgg

Not you saying no contact whatsoever. I am talking about the others that have responded here hinting that that is the case. That doesn't seem to be the case here. No need to get defensive. I'm not out to get you. It sounds like she is allowing you contact with him albeit it is not 24 hrs/day.

You won't stand for one parent being mean to the other.

While I do think that it is bad for one parent to be mean to the other, you really missed what I said.

Originally Posted by Deuce

But injuring our child because one parent is mad at the other is wrong. I won't stand for it.

It is the welfare of our son that I am most concerned about. These two are so closely linked that they're difficult to separate. But it is a greater tragedy that our son suffers because we're unable to get along, or because we're unable to manage our conflict in a constructive manner.

Originally Posted by kgg

I can understand that completely. So are you saying she is the only one being mean.

No, I have said that there's hurt on both sides. There's so much hurt that we can't see our way back to each other, back to the love and family that we share. rkzenrage has already given up on me. My wife has given up on me. I haven't given up. I'm working through the pain to reach her. Through *my* pain. Trying not to increase *her* pain. I have never said that she's the only one being mean... I hurt and she hurts.

Originally Posted by kgg

Your posts can seem pretty mean spirited.

Ok, I guess I misunderstood you about the "no contact" thing in the other quote. But I have to ask you again, which of my posts "seem pretty mean spirited"? For sure, I was writing at times when I was crushed with pain, drowned with fear. But I went back and re-read them, and I don't see the meanness you're talking about.

I'm asking because I've heard this before. "That hurt, that was mean." I must have some blind spot here, and dammit, it's a problem for me. I have never posted anything with that intention. What did I post that was mean? Can you explain that to me, please?

Originally Posted by kgg

It is one thing to be passionate about your feelings but both people can go too far with the end result possibly hurting the child. I can't imagine either one of you would do that intentionally.

Nor can I imagine it, not even unintentionally. She is a very strong person, and fiercely protective of our children. I admire that. And there is no limit to the love I have for our children. Right now, the hurt our youngest son is suffering, and believe me, he is suffering, is from our inability to manage our conflict constructively. In fact, it's so bad that our fighting hurts him, and the fighting that's leading to divorce hurts him. And this is likely just the opening act. Actually living apart will be awful, expensive, and destructive. It will be like dying. There will be a death of the family our son has known all his life, the only family structure he knows. If that pain is avoidable, and I am convinced that it is possible to avoid it, that I should withhold nothing in my efforts to do so.

Originally Posted by kgg

She is hurting you, you are probably hurting her too. It's just that she took action and that hurts worse. I don't know.

being married for...what did you say....16 years? I imagine both of you know exactly what buttons to push to maximize the hurt factor. You are hurt. Understandable. She must be hurting to so take that into consideration. If you both do that, hopefully the anger will go away.

Yes, sadly, you're right. I regret that I agree with you, she is hurting. And the fucked up part of it is that I am the source of that pain. I can't tell you how much I hate that. I would stop it in an instant if I knew what to stop. And I can do that too. I am a strong person too. I can take action, I can persevere. I do not shirk from hard work.

And, yes, I am hurting too.

I want to give her every consideration, I want compassion and forgiveness and love to flow again. It is there. But I don't know how to get to it.

Originally Posted by kgg

16 years is a long time to not feel some compassion for each other. Try it.

I messed up a long term relationship because I didn't try it and am now much wiser because of it.

I am filled with compassion for her, and I think there is some compassion in her for me, but that it is hidden behind a protective wall, made of bricks of anger mortared together by pain. Anger and pain topped by fear makes a redoubtable defense. I love her, and I weep for her pain and fear. But I don't know how to salve it.

They say that you learn from your mistakes, but there are so many mistakes to be made, that I don't think I could fit them all into my one lifetime. Better I should learn from my mistakes and the mistakes of others. You paint a sympathetic picture, and your last remark intrigues me. If you are willing, I would like to hear about your experience. Perhaps I could avoid the mistakes you lived through. I could sure use the help. I would like to benefit from your increased wisdom.