The Cellar - View Single Post - Antiwar protests increase probability of war

Undertoad · 02-24-2003, 11:25 AM

Oh and one more thing. The more I think about this, the dumber it gets:

Even in Eastern Europe and Japan is somewhere between 57 and 80+% against a unilateral US attack. These are landslide numbers!

This is arguing around the point, which is intellectually dishonest.

Someone framed a question that could get such a majority opinion and is reporting it as honest opinion. This kind of crap happens all the time. Mostly it happens around the abortion debate, where both sides routinely ask different kinds of questions to get majorities, and then claim that they have majority support.

How could one get such a bogus majority in Eastern Europe and Japan? Start by asking a question about a situation that doesn't exist. Any proposed action hasn't been "unilateral" since, well, about six months ago. The debate shifted, and the anti-war movement failed to follow the shift.

Eastern Europe is PART of the non-unilateral approach. Eastern Europe is in FAVOR of the approach partly because they WERE asked and DID have input into the situation. That re-framed France and Germany's position as being EVEN MORE UNILATERAL than the US position.

So when you currently ask eastern Europe whether the action should be unilateral, the question you are asking is whether or not their FAVORABLE opinion should be CONSULTED. It WAS and IS consulted, so there is no unilateralism and the entire point is moot. Not moot enough for the New York Times, I guess?

What happens when you ask a more reasonable question, such as "Should Hussein be forcibly removed from power?" you would, I'm certain, get majority support for that answer in eastern Europe. Unlike their buddies in "old" Europe, the eastern Europeans are quite familiar with tyranny and what life is like under it.

Lastly, any question that presumes a majority is, of course, ignoring the majority that really counts: Iraqis. Their opinion on the matter has been consulted and 100% of them want Hussein to remain in power. That tells you all you really need to know: that Hussein's "sovereignty" has been established via the exercise of brutal force against his own people.

02-24-2003, 11:25 AM	#19
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Oh and one more thing. The more I think about this, the dumber it gets: Even in Eastern Europe and Japan is somewhere between 57 and 80+% against a unilateral US attack. These are landslide numbers! This is arguing around the point, which is intellectually dishonest. Someone framed a question that could get such a majority opinion and is reporting it as honest opinion. This kind of crap happens all the time. Mostly it happens around the abortion debate, where both sides routinely ask different kinds of questions to get majorities, and then claim that they have majority support. How could one get such a bogus majority in Eastern Europe and Japan? Start by asking a question about a situation that doesn't exist. Any proposed action hasn't been "unilateral" since, well, about six months ago. The debate shifted, and the anti-war movement failed to follow the shift. Eastern Europe is PART of the non-unilateral approach. Eastern Europe is in FAVOR of the approach partly because they WERE asked and DID have input into the situation. That re-framed France and Germany's position as being EVEN MORE UNILATERAL than the US position. So when you currently ask eastern Europe whether the action should be unilateral, the question you are asking is whether or not their FAVORABLE opinion should be CONSULTED. It WAS and IS consulted, so there is no unilateralism and the entire point is moot. Not moot enough for the New York Times, I guess? What happens when you ask a more reasonable question, such as "Should Hussein be forcibly removed from power?" you would, I'm certain, get majority support for that answer in eastern Europe. Unlike their buddies in "old" Europe, the eastern Europeans are quite familiar with tyranny and what life is like under it. Lastly, any question that presumes a majority is, of course, ignoring the majority that really counts: Iraqis. Their opinion on the matter has been consulted and 100% of them want Hussein to remain in power. That tells you all you really need to know: that Hussein's "sovereignty" has been established via the exercise of brutal force against his own people.