[Xugumad]

Originally posted by kaleidoscopic ziggurat

wasn't the ottoman empire controlling that area of the world for a while? its not as if palestine was peaceful and doing alright before european intervention... being right in the fertile crescent it is a hot piece of property. who owns the right to any particular piece of land? the guy who has the biggest gun, apparently. it isn't something i agree with but that seems to be the way it is, non?

I hope that's not the way it is - and if it becomes that way, we must stop it. We can't live in a world where national boundaries and populations can be redrawn at gunpoint because somebody's arsenal is better than yours.

That's why Wilhelm II's aspirations were fought. That's why Adolf Hitler's desires had to be beaten back. (even though western Oil interests dictated military action) That's why - ultimately - Saddam had to be restrained. That's why the US can't simply annex Canada, although it has the weapons and army to do so.

Yeah, World Peace is a distant hope - but we can't stand buy and nod sadly when armed conquest SUCCEEDS. We must stop it. At any cost. That's the whole concept of civilization, that's what sets us apart from animals. The biggest and most silver-haired gorilla will get the most fertile female, even if it means killing other males. Are we more than that?

i don't feel that comparison is accurate... native americans were a thousand years behind the europeans and had nowhere to go. what do you think... should we give a giant chunk of north america back to the natives?

Nomadic Palestinian settlers were, arguably, a thousand years behind the jewish settlers who arrived and soon received military support ranging from the most modern tanks to nuclear weapons. My comparison didn't claim that NAmerica should be given back to Native Americans. It just showed that the way 'the west was won' is somewhat similar to the way the Palestinians were pushed out. Besides, giving anything back to Native Americans apart from the few reservations that they have right now would be an outright admission of guilt, which many people simply aren't comfortable with. Clinton can feel guilty and sniff sadly, but most white Americans would rather worry about where to get the money for their SUV's gas needs.

And by the way - the reason why I brought up Washington etc. is because of the claim that Arafat is Egyptian (and thus by implication shouldn't be messing around with the Palestinians that much anyway). Washington, Jefferson etc. fought for the freedom and independence of a country that they THEMSELVES had to found. They weren't 'American', Arafat isn't 'Palestinian', all of them fight for what they perceive to be their homeland.

so is there some particular year in which boundaries should have been solidified? the entire area was fluid around the time of WWI and the fall of the ottomans if i'm not mistaken... i wouldn't sit here and say that what the brits/US folks did is RIGHT but that's the situation, and at this point, they've got the land. no one's going to uproot them now. israelis have been without a homeland for hundreds of years, and suddenly they inherited their old one. i'd be lying if i said i didn't respect the hebrew meme and its ability to remain true over the years.

The BIG zionist immigration to what is now only a small part of Israel started AFTER World War TWO, not ONE. Israel declared independence in 1947. No Ottomans there. The situation was fluid as mud. The Balfour declaration was in 1917, yes, but many things happened around that time. To artificially create a Jewish state in the middle of a hostile Arab sea borders on megalomania on the side of the British. Not that anyone would accuse them of that, of course. Rule Britannia!

i wonder if they'd be able to live in harmony without the religious aspects of the problem.

Doubtful. 'God's chosen people', as obnoxious as the term is, would still claim land that isn't theirs to take, and oppress those who want to kick them out. A lot is religious, yes, but the Israeli state still remains an artificial creation that wouldn't exist without $7 BILLION of US funding every year. And that's just the official, disclosed foreign aid. Nobody knows how much more is pumped into Israel, especially in illegitimate weapons aid.

oh sorry, what -should- i be doing? go join the peace corps?
protest israeli action in the area? deny the holocaust?

obviously US interests in israel are due to the strong jewish presence in that country... i don't think i need to explain the nature of that situation.

Learn to read critically. Don't just watch TV news, read some independent media. Try reading some British news sources - ironically those are a lot more in-depth and critical than the US ones. I recommend www.indymedia.org www.worldnews.com and www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest

with respect to the cry-baby comment, i feel there is a certain validity to the situation... israel was created as a nation state... later it was invaded -- hostile military action on all fronts. not only did they defend their new land, but they pushed back the invaders into their own territory. when you begin a military engagement of that sort maybe you should think about your people living in the territories right near the contested lands. i think it was gracious enough of israel to give the sinai back. the rest -- too bad.

And again - you do not CREATE nation states. There was no nation. There was no state. There was an artificial transplant of Jewish people into an area of the world where they did not belong. Nobody there cared about what happened 2000 years ago, apart from the jewish interests in the countries that sponsored AND STILL SPONSOR that move. Israel didn't beat back any Arab onslaught - US weapons did. Now ask yourself why a 'good Christian' US would want to cause problems to Islamic countries. (especially 40-50 years ago) HMM.

well, better than a frustrated bleeding-heart position that really solves little. if you have some magical thing a person can do that can ease the tension in the middle east, by all means, share it. the world would be better for it.

Knowing the truth and telling more people about it will do a lot more than shrugging and turning your back. That's what this is all about.

i assume from your comments that you feel the israeli nationstate should simply dissolve and the jews should go back to wandering? please clarify..

No. I don't want Israel to stop existing - there are a LOT of people there who are completely innocent of any of the idiocy that has led to this mess.

I just want people to realize that Israel is being kept alive artificially by US interests. $7 billion at least, as stated earlier. Ever wonder why the US is now dipping into social security funds to try and stop the renewed deficit slide? Ever wonder how it's going to pay for Star Wars X? Ever wonder how many homeless people there are? Or how many are dying of AIDS and other fatal diseases because so many people shrug and say 'they should have had health insurance'? Do you have ANY clue how ridiculous it is to be accused of being a 'bleeding heart liberal' when you see people dying not just around you but thousands of miles across the planet just because of vested US interests and fucked-up lobbyist groups?

Without US aid, Israel would be wiped off the face of the planet in less than a decade. It would have never come into existence, and it's been kept alive for over half a century now. The formerly oppressed Jews have instituted a racist and authoritarian regime, oppressing the Palestinians in one of the most ironic tragedies of the last century.

I am not complaining about Israel. I don't dislike the Jews. I just wonder WHY all of the above is going on.