[mrnoodle]

Originally Posted by lumberjim

If it were, in FACT, an all encompassing, life changing life choice, you'd do it right. you wouldn't continually fail at it. You're content with striving. it's all that is required by your religion, right? that and believing that you'll be forgiven if you fail, right?

in fact, there seems to be an unstated expectation for you to fail to follow your rules. the assumption that you are inherently flawed. original sin. after all, jesus wouldn;t have been very useful if there was nothing to forgive, or sins to die for, right?

Still missing the point. "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Striving is the best you can do. I don't know, but I think it could conceivably be possible to stop sinning altogether. However, you would still be tainted by your previous sins.

All it means is that there's no way to earn salvation through good works. The sacrifice had to be perfect, and the only perfect man was Jesus.

The idea that sin is expected is off the mark. Here's chapter 3 of Romans, it explains it in context.

Romans 3
God's Faithfulness
1What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2Much in every way! First of all, they have been entrusted with the very words of God.
3What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God's faithfulness? 4Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written:
"So that you may be proved right when you speak
and prevail when you judge."[a]

5But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? 7Someone might argue, "If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?" 8Why not say—as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say—"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved.

No One is Righteous
9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
13"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."
19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

Righteousness Through Faith
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

So, it makes me think that most people that have 'faith' are willing to surrender their responsibility for holding themselves to their own morals. Why do you need a church to cajole you? why an idol to feel inferior to?

Not an idol, the most high God. If you can't feel inferior to your creator without developing a complex, your ego is a bit inflated.

if that helps you, great. really. but the attitude of superiority that so often goes hand in hand with it is insufferable to me. I have my own values that are probably different from yours. the difference is that because they are personally mine, i have no expectation that you should adhere to them.

The attitude that you call "superiority" is not. We are all equal. We're all equally sinful, too. When someone mentions Christ, it's because they want to share his truth, not lord it over someone because they're so morally superior. The opposite is true -- in accepting Christ, I've realized that I'm not worthy of salvation on my own.

What you want is for people to hold their faith in Christ in as low esteem as possible, so as not to insinuate that Christ is lord. If we did that, we would not worship God, but something of our own creation. The God of heaven and earth is not a tidbit to be chosen from a sampler plate of human-concocted deities, put on a little shelf somewhere, and only brought out when no one is going to be offended.

religions require that you fall in line with predetermined sets of morals and cause you to feel like you;ve failed if you do it wrong. I have said before that i'm a pickandchoosist. this is why. It's not that i'm an immoral person, and think that religions are wrong. I just think that organized religion is mainly about exerting power over it's followers. And the followers sanction the influence by feeling guilt at their failure to conform to the mold of the perfect follower. i just think your religious philosophy should be a personal and private matter.

You feel like you've failed when you sin not because organized religion told you so, but because when Christ is in your heart, you feel it inside. If you accepted Christ, yet never entered a church building in your life, you would be conscious of your sin.

edited because I overstepped my bounds at the end.