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Originally Posted by Flint
So, and I've asked this before, what do we call the MILLLIONS of people who aren't real Christians? And, how do we determine the real Christians? What if somebody thinks you aren't a real Christian, and you think the same of them? Who is right? In the real world, it isn't cut and dried. At all.
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Only God knows someone's heart, but by someone's actions you know what they believe. Someone can be a Christian and fail to convince me of the fact by their actions. That doesn't change the whether they are a Christian or not, but it does affect their credibility. At the same time, someone can follow every law in the bible to a T, but not have the love of Christ in their heart. So people's actions in the real world are not cut and dried. But who Christ is doesn't change. To mangle a certain wellknown verse, you can tell what kind of tree it is by the fruit that falls from its branches. That doesn't mean every single piece of fruit is good, unfortunately.
To continue mangling the metaphor, it seems like what you're asking is, "If someone claims to be an apple tree, how do I know if they're telling the truth?" Well, see if there are apples on the ground.
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Originally Posted by Spexxvet
Striving to be like Jesus is a good thing, even when you fail. It's those so-called Christians who criticise others for acting un-Christian that anger me, especially since they fail, too. And those who try to legislate me into Christianity need to stop.
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Christians are actually called to hold each other accountable for their actions. To people who aren't Christians, they're supposed to share the gospel. In love, not acting as judges. You're right, Christianity isn't about forcing false morality on people who don't believe it. But, from a human point of view -- this isn't from God, it's just my opinion, which is often wrong -- what is the difference between pushing legislation that infringes on your personal set of values and that which infringes on mine? Are your values more important than mine, simply by virtue of the fact that you don't believe in God? We can be pissed at each other and disagree vehemently with the other's point of view, but I don't want your values pushed on me any more than you want mine pushed on you.
In the system of government we've set up, the vote will decide. If not directly, than representationally through the votes of congress. We'll just have to duke it out. This is an entirely secular process, where majority rules. It certainly doesn't favor God in any way.
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As for Christ having your back? Sounds like a crutch, to me. He didn't cause those things, and he can't fix them, either, IMHO. I'm glad you get a good, peaceful feeling. Who gives you "the strength to get through it"? You do; it's all you.
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Nope, I tried doing things with my own strength and found out it didn't work. I still do try it from time to time, but now that I've thrown in with Christ, the consequences are always the same. It just doesn't work. If that means I use a crutch, then a crutch is what I'll use.
There was a time when I didn't believe. I'm not totally blind to the other point of view. I still doubt. But when God speaks, you know it. It's idiocy to anyone else, but it's life itself to those who believe. It's like trying to explain snow to someone who lives in the Sahara. You can imagine aspects of it, conjure up reasonable fascimiles, and utterly convince yourself that you know all about where the other person is coming from (and be 100% sure that they're full of crap), but until the flakes fall on your face, you don't "get" it. It can't be explained into existence or out of existence, you have to be under it when it falls to know for sure. And you can go for years without ever seeing it again, and begin to doubt that you ever felt it in the first place. The metaphor can go on forever, but I've already taken it too far.