[BlueSky_TheMan]

Originally Posted by marichiko

[i]I've tried arguing the Bible many times before with fundamentalist's of whatever stripe - JW's, Mormons, born agains, etc., etc. There always comes a point where they get this beleaguered expression on their face which means......

Urbane Guerrilla Why am I unsurprised?
Once, I might have thought as Marichiko does. But as I approach Mari's age, that "old enough to know better" age, I think I find myself getting closer to God. My experience of organized religion is open to quips, as I am a baptized and confirmed Episcopalian...

Marichiko and Urbane Guerrilla,
I've seen first hand the damage and the strength that organized religion can bring. I think their strength rises simply from it's number of followers that find a kinship and healing amongst their own, that is, as long as they are all huddled together without opposition from opposing beliefs. Unfortunately Any organized group (the group just happens to be religion in this case) is bound to experience well meant misinterpretation over time and you can't overlook the fact that giving yourself the label "JW's, Mormons, born agains, etc" immediately divides you from BILLIONS of other souls that could potentialy provide the feedback,nurturing, and/or love that we ALL need along the way.

Rather than saying hi I'm a "JW, Mormon, born again, etc" , and immediately receive all the negative and positive impressions from those labels, wouldn't it all work out better if each one of us said:

Hi, I'm a Human and you are too. I have a belief structure on creation and death and so do you. Things in this world scare me and I know they scare you too. etc...

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Why am I unsurprised?

Once, I might have thought as Marichiko does. But as I approach Mari's age, that "old enough to know better" age, I think I find myself getting closer to God. My experience of organized religion is open to quips, as I am a baptized and confirmed Episcopalian -- yeah, the same denomination that just elected its first female Presiding Bishop, to perhaps great excitement in the Anglican Community in other parts of the world.

The quip, in effect: "Well, my son, I don't believe in organized religion either; I'm Episcopalian."

The practice of a religion, even unto taking part in a quality religious retreat like Cursillo, has made a better man of me. There was a time when I heard, and knowing no better believed, antireligious propaganda of the sort repeated in Mari's para above, but that time is long passed, and I dismiss its promulgators as a pack of lying idiots or hidden-agenda types in search of hegemony with themselves as hegemon, and often both. No exceptions -- self-servingness is too often found, and too powerful an impulse.

Now there IS a problem with what I'd call "religious malpractice," an irrational and abusive approach to religion. I've seen a couple of examples of what this produces in the children scorched by it. It's a strange combination of rebellion and a powerful religious urge: they turn pagan and labor at practicing it. They seem motivated to punish their unduly Godstruck parents by rejecting their faith, and then they move heaven and earth to find another one, and preferably one as oppositely constituted as possible. One woman I know went through a druggie period, then several years of the Church of Satan (those guys' newsletters are enough to turn about anyone who isn't a sociopath right off) and is now busy with a bunch of neo-Egyptian pantheon types, who strike me as a major improvement over the CoS. They're colorful, but frankly I don't see the point of it all. However, I think I see the root cause.

I enjoy "The Wall" too. And ain't nobody chucking me through any window, Mari.