[tw]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

The quarter million that did come are sufficient to prove my case, leaving zero justification for your views. They did not run to Hanoi, but away from it, and in some cases more than once. Communist Vietnam was a hell hole, and it improved once they stopped trying to practice Communism on the streets of Saigon (I will not name a city after Ho.).

What happened once those fears were unfounded? Oh. That means UG must now learn all of history. Did Vietnam change anything that caused people to stop fleeing? Of course not. People stopped fleeing - and many returned to Vietnam - because Vietnam was not the hell hole that an enlisted man is so sure existed. An enlisted man who will be exposed for rewriting history in direct contradiction to US government accounts.

Ahh but writing fictional history is fun. One is not encumbered with all that dirty reality.

This was Ho's move to find a power sponsor who could back him against the French.

Allow me to appreciate what UG has just posted. Pulp fiction is nothing more than an excuse for using dirty words. Meanwhile, Nationalist Vietnamese wrote a Declaration of Independence only so that the US would come to their aid? A document as fundamental to them as the US Declaration of Independence is to Americans was instead written only as a cheap and dirty ploy to get America to come to their aid? Invent history when you don't know the answers?

Ho Chi Minh asked to become a protectorate of the US because ... well even the US government says why he made those requests. So which one is lying - Urbane Guerrilla or the US government? Urbane Guerrilla - at least learn what the US government said before you rewrite history for personal gain. Yes it is fun to write fiction. But better fiction writers first spend years learning reality before writing their fiction. You have just contradicted well published US government documents by saying

This was Ho's move to find a power sponsor ...

IOW you again invent history to suit your needs. You have been caught and exposed.

The blame does not fall on the armed forces. It falls on trying to fight a polite war, which was done in the nation's capital -- an error which today's Administration, having experience of Vietnam, is determined not to repeat. Neither the Kennedy nor the Johnson Administrations knew how to win Vietnam, and in the losing of Vietnam, the domino theory was vindicated also: South Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia and additionally Burma fell into darkness.

The domino theory was a lie predicated on a now universally discredited theory that Vietnam was part of a global communist agenda. A global communist conspiracy necessary to justify a widely discredited Domino Theory did not exist. What you describe as targets of that Domino Theory was nothing more that civil war - leading to far more corrupt government in Cambodia. Thailand instead remained true to their people and therefore suffered no coup. How can that be if the Domino Theory was valid? Only the ill educated would still believe the Domino Theory.

A polite war? Where do you come up with these myths? America used every asset of our conventional war machine in that war. Armed forces in Europe, S Korea, etc were sometimes stripped down to almost decommisioning to fight a *polite* war. We even considered using nuclear weapons. We lost almost 10% of our B-52 force. When did that become a *polite* war? Urbane Guerrilla - are you the reincarnation of a disgraceful American General named Westmoreland? You also change history and facts to promote your agenda.

Even Johnson, in recently released tapes as president, admits the American war in Vietnam was not winnable. Even Johnson says UG has misrepresented the facts. Blame does not fall on the armed forces. Blame belongs on top management who both literally and intentionally lied to create a Vietnam War. Deja Vue. We do it again to American troops in Iraq. Even worse, Urbane Guerrilla endorses the trashing of American troops and American principles. He even puts up 'straw men arguments' about blaming the armed forces. The military was but another victim of lying Generals and civilian leaders. But again, Urbane Guerrilla conveniently declares the military was blamed.

Urbane Guerrilla has even posted history in direct contradiction to what the US government has published. When Urbane Guerrilla does not know history, he invents it. The Vietnam Declaration of Independence was a ploy to get American support against the French? UG - who do you think was paying the French - according to US government documents?

Meanwhile here we are again making the military another victim of a lying president and his "Mission Accomplished" war. When I say those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it, well, we have Urbane Guerrilla as a perfect example.