[BigV]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

I call bullshit on your call of bullshit.

Ok, I unilaterally stop bullshit.

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

If parents aren't monitoring their children's behavior, and they are exhibiting signs (depressed, antisocial behavior over and beyond what a normal teenager exhibits, writing violent and other harmful thoughts in a journal or on the internet) of impending violence, and the parents aren't doing their job parenting, then this shit happens. Period.

I agree. And it is a JOB, no mistake. Real work, but a labor of love. The only minor quibble I have here is that sometimes this behavior is present and nobody dies. In fact, most of the time, the kids' emotional weather is incompletely known by the parents, and almost always the combination of an adolescent in the throes of teen angst and a parent only partly aware of the situation DOES NOT make the evening news. Most of these storms blow through, ruffling the curtains and ruining the crockery, but people don't die. I also agree that sometimes the situation calls for professional intervention, and 911 is their number. Been there, done that.

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

This child was 16 (or 17, I've seen both), a nazi, posting about doing violence to former schoolmates, and already in homeschooling. The child was kicked out of school (of course, the school can't discuss why, but the article I saw the principle didn't even know why). If the child was already kicked out of school once, that's a sign your child has problems.

Should you EXPECT your child to go kill 12 people? No. But if you're seeing red flags, and you do not parent your child, this type of thing happens.

What I've found is that the insults, both real and imagined, I've visited on the young people in my life, are remembered ten times longer and more vividly than the loving care I give them. Their reaction is just that--theirs. And they gotta work it out. Writing is one way, drawing is another, music, IM, hangin wi' the homies, etc.

For sure, this kid was awash in a sea of red flags. Dad dead, mom in nursing home, Goth shaped target of peer ridicule, already kicked out of school at least once, to borrow a phrase, it must have sucked to be him.

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

I have a 17 year old male child, who exhibits loner, anti-social behavior and does not play well with others at school. His grades are average. I know where he is at all times. Period. He has a cell phone and keeps it with him. He's never been at trouble in school, other than his grades. His biological father is a murderer, and I am aware that this sort of behavior may be partly genetic in nature.

If I *wasn't* paying attention to his behavior, his mood, his whereabouts, where his friend lives, looking at the history on his IE, checking his pictures on the computer, monitoring his notebooks for dark or disturbing art, checking his backpack, things like that, then I would not be doing my job as a parent.

Again, you're right on target here. Pay attention. Be present. Love'em, discipline (another form of love) 'em. Listen to them, on all frequencies. Be suspicious and be compassionate. Dang, I'm tired just writing about it. Or thinking about it with our two teens and one adolescent. Yah, wore out.

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

Parents who "gee, I didn't see this coming" weren't paying attention.

But on this one, I don't agree. Some parents are slack, granted. But even diligent ones, among whose number I count myself, are still human, fallible. I can be fooled. I can be misled. I can be deceived and lied to, successfully. I know it happens. I don't think my parents' omniscience lasted much into my teen years. But hopefully, by that time, I have planted enough seeds of.... what? goodness, self control, self awareness, conflict resolution skills, optimism, etc that when the storms of teen life roar, we'll all be shaken but unmoved.

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

Indirectly, that's what I said, yes. But to clarify your paraphrase, Parents read journals and DO NOTHING ABOUT IT and people die in schools.

How they handle it depends on the parent, obviously, but dismissing it, attributing violent "stories" and "thoughts" clearly written down in such a way that the police feel the child is a danger to themselves or others simply to "independant thought", is potentially lethal.

I did try to represent your statement fairly. And when you ammend it with the BUT DO NOTHING ABOUT IT, qualifier, you remove the grounds for my objections. We agree again.

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

Absolutely. The child was throwing off red flags all over the place, and nothing was done (at least as far as the media has reported). No therapy. No counseling. Loner. Anti-social. Nazi. Writing violent remarks regarding former schoolmates on a forum-type setting. Access to unlocked, unsafe, guns in the home and ammunition. Absent parents, one suicide and one mental. HELLO???? Where was the parenting??

I don't know who knew what, certainly it's a crazy mess out there at this point. What a shame, a terrible, cryin shame.

I have read some early evidence that there were steps taken, but clearly not the right ones. Sad.

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

Arrest them all with just cause. Not just BEcause..

Better a prison than my kids' school..

Hey, I will unhappily admit that WITH CAUSE, Officer Friendly should take him away. But this really is at the core of my objections. By the time the kid's arrested, you've practically conceded defeat as a parent. Certainly you've declared your surrender to any authority over the child. Maybe that's appropriate, and if so, *sigh*, sad. But ok.

On the other hand, when do you drop the dime on your kid? Not in retrospect, no fair. Each day is a damn mystery. I swear, parenting is the last great refuge of amateurs. Seriously, who knows if this time is the last time. I for one am glad for the mercy I received as a youngster, and that I wasn't treated so strictly that I got arrested for doing the bad things I did. Certainly no murderer, but, criminy, prison is not victory, it's a draw at best, and a delay of defeat most of the time.

This cannot be prevented. And the cost of the futile exercise of attempting to do so is far far greater than even the cost of what has happened today.