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Yelof · 05-15-2002, 06:14 PM

Ok I said earlier I would return to the original article

far from deterring suicide bombings by Hamas, an "equitable settlement" would likely have provoked more.

Or perhaps not..I read in this months "New Scientist" an interview with Mahmoud El Zahhar 3 or 4th in command of Hammas
He is asked what Israel would have to do for Hamas to end its armed struggle.
"Get out of the Territories. If they are not here, whom an I going to fight?" This he says is the minimum. There are other things, such as the right of return for Palestinian refugees and the establishment of a Palestinian state. But nothing is possible while there are Israeli soldiers and settlers in the Gaza Strip and West Bank."
So some settlement seems possible with Hamas, and for sure not all would agree with the inevitable compromise, but they would end up like the Real IRA in Northern Ireland today, yesterdays warriors unable to give up the fight, almost irrelevant.

Prior to Israel's offensive in the West Bank, suicide bombers were striking at nearly a once-a-day rate.
So is Israel to continue demolishing houses and treating Palestinian areas like a war games area indefinitely? In terms of overall human suffering we'd be better off with the bombings, which without violent response and with instead dialog would eventually peter out. Israeli fear is fear to eat out at a restaurant, more of them die in car accidents each year then by bomb, the same cannot be said of Palestinians

last week's attacker came from the one location (the Gaza Strip) that Israel didn't target.

That the policy might be temporarily effective does not prove that it will be effective in the long run or that it is just.

Palestinian terrorism does not result from Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, but from Israel's existence.

so there is no hope for Israel then? as she shall have no peace until either she is gone or all her enemies are..there certainly are and will always be Palestinians who will fight for liberation of ALL the homeland, but there will be those who while perhaps never giving up theoretical claim will accept some other just settlement..the Republic of Ireland to this day claims all the island of Ireland and when conceived and at times that claim was a full wish of both government and people but with time the claim has become symbolic and may even be reversed as part of some final peace settlement.

Because terrorism long predates the 1967 occupation.

what resistance to the occupation of lands prior to 1967 proves that all Israeli lands must be returned for peace?
or perhaps reversal of 1949 might have seen achievable in 1963 but does not seem humane or realistic now.

Suicide bombings started only after the 1993 Oslo Accords, which provided Palestinians with their best opportunity for a state.

Many consider the Olso Accords to have been deeply flawed, the Palestinians gave away too much actual control to Israel and allowed Israel to defer to later any issues of real substance

see for here for example

The position I would advocate was IMO best expressed by Stickerboy in a kuro5hin post

A New Framework for Peace in the Middle East

Undertoad.. I know what you are getting at here.. hell I have been to both Egypt and Israel and I preferred the Israelis, and I didn't even like most of the arrogent pushy SOB's. Although I think there is a lot in Islam that is beautiful, and in the past it's culture was impressive and progressive now days much of it seems infantile and although I wouldn't use the term "Superior", they would contest that our culture is overly occupied with the self and would point to our treatment of the elderly for example.. never the less I know in which culture I'd rather live in. The Israelis have certainly done very well in Israel, but massive overseas funding must have something to do with it. That the Palestinians are motivated by shame, although anger and a sense of injustice would be more appropriate descriptives, does not matter if their cause is just.

Also the Palestinian Authorities record on Democracy is pretty bad and a Palestinian State could end up a hellhole but at least it would be their hellhole

05-15-2002, 06:14 PM	#11
Yelof neither here nor there Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 179	Ok I said earlier I would return to the original article far from deterring suicide bombings by Hamas, an "equitable settlement" would likely have provoked more. Or perhaps not..I read in this months "New Scientist" an interview with Mahmoud El Zahhar 3 or 4th in command of Hammas He is asked what Israel would have to do for Hamas to end its armed struggle. "Get out of the Territories. If they are not here, whom an I going to fight?" This he says is the minimum. There are other things, such as the right of return for Palestinian refugees and the establishment of a Palestinian state. But nothing is possible while there are Israeli soldiers and settlers in the Gaza Strip and West Bank." So some settlement seems possible with Hamas, and for sure not all would agree with the inevitable compromise, but they would end up like the Real IRA in Northern Ireland today, yesterdays warriors unable to give up the fight, almost irrelevant. Prior to Israel's offensive in the West Bank, suicide bombers were striking at nearly a once-a-day rate. So is Israel to continue demolishing houses and treating Palestinian areas like a war games area indefinitely? In terms of overall human suffering we'd be better off with the bombings, which without violent response and with instead dialog would eventually peter out. Israeli fear is fear to eat out at a restaurant, more of them die in car accidents each year then by bomb, the same cannot be said of Palestinians last week's attacker came from the one location (the Gaza Strip) that Israel didn't target. That the policy might be temporarily effective does not prove that it will be effective in the long run or that it is just. Palestinian terrorism does not result from Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, but from Israel's existence. so there is no hope for Israel then? as she shall have no peace until either she is gone or all her enemies are..there certainly are and will always be Palestinians who will fight for liberation of ALL the homeland, but there will be those who while perhaps never giving up theoretical claim will accept some other just settlement..the Republic of Ireland to this day claims all the island of Ireland and when conceived and at times that claim was a full wish of both government and people but with time the claim has become symbolic and may even be reversed as part of some final peace settlement. Because terrorism long predates the 1967 occupation. what resistance to the occupation of lands prior to 1967 proves that all Israeli lands must be returned for peace? or perhaps reversal of 1949 might have seen achievable in 1963 but does not seem humane or realistic now. Suicide bombings started only after the 1993 Oslo Accords, which provided Palestinians with their best opportunity for a state. Many consider the Olso Accords to have been deeply flawed, the Palestinians gave away too much actual control to Israel and allowed Israel to defer to later any issues of real substance see for here for example The position I would advocate was IMO best expressed by Stickerboy in a kuro5hin post A New Framework for Peace in the Middle East Undertoad.. I know what you are getting at here.. hell I have been to both Egypt and Israel and I preferred the Israelis, and I didn't even like most of the arrogent pushy SOB's. Although I think there is a lot in Islam that is beautiful, and in the past it's culture was impressive and progressive now days much of it seems infantile and although I wouldn't use the term "Superior", they would contest that our culture is overly occupied with the self and would point to our treatment of the elderly for example.. never the less I know in which culture I'd rather live in. The Israelis have certainly done very well in Israel, but massive overseas funding must have something to do with it. That the Palestinians are motivated by shame, although anger and a sense of injustice would be more appropriate descriptives, does not matter if their cause is just. Also the Palestinian Authorities record on Democracy is pretty bad and a Palestinian State could end up a hellhole but at least it would be their hellhole Last edited by Yelof; 05-15-2002 at 07:05 PM.