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Undertoad · 05-15-2002, 12:21 PM

I agree Yelof, the important thing is to look long-term.

I don't believe I understand the whole thing, cos it's just so damn big. As Dennis Miller puts it, "That's just my opinion, I could be wrong." So here I go:

People smarter than me have been pointing out that the whole thing is a serious cultural "disconnect". Arabic/Islamic belief systems are different than ours.

Their society is an honor/shame society, and they desperately want to believe that their culture is superior to that of the west. Unfortunately for them, it isn't -- at least in terms of how its restrictions also fail to produce any economic growth at all, even standing on top of gallons of the most valuable natural resource in the world.

(sidebar: if you don't agree that economic growth makes a superior culture, try freedom, or democratic principles, or humanity to man.)

Israel, with the economic abilities that freedom and individual rights, grew into a world powerhouse in a matter of decades. No Islamic/Arabic state has been so successful since -- well, you'd have to go back aways. Like a millienia or so.

For the shame-based society, to have another culture so thoroughly thrash them is not only a silly matter of pride, but is brutally shameful. It's unacceptable to their belief system.

That's why Arabs could believe so uniformly that bin Laden had nothing to do with 9/11 and that the entire thing is an Israeli plot. Nobody must know it was us; it was a shameful thing. Our culture cannot go wrong.

And so, for the Palestinians, it is not so bad simply to be occupied, but to be occupied by the Israelis -- another culture, demonstrating its superiority to ours -- that is downright unacceptable.

Unfortunately, being right next door to a separate yet incredibly superior culture is also an unacceptable humiliation.

Now here's a compelling thought. The last time the US was forced to deal with a shame-based society was... the Japanese. In the 20s and 30s they believed that their culture was superior, that their religion was the favored one, etc. They quit believing that when the superior culture demonstrated its superiority in a very, um, compelling way, something they couldn't fail to notice.

But I can't end on that thought. The only thing more powerful than the A-bomb, friends, is western culture. And with communications technology, we can now export that culture from underneath. Its economic force cannot be denied, and the productivity gains that it creates will inevitably be bigger than oil.

But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

05-15-2002, 12:21 PM	#7
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	I agree Yelof, the important thing is to look long-term. I don't believe I understand the whole thing, cos it's just so damn big. As Dennis Miller puts it, "That's just my opinion, I could be wrong." So here I go: People smarter than me have been pointing out that the whole thing is a serious cultural "disconnect". Arabic/Islamic belief systems are different than ours. Their society is an honor/shame society, and they desperately want to believe that their culture is superior to that of the west. Unfortunately for them, it isn't -- at least in terms of how its restrictions also fail to produce any economic growth at all, even standing on top of gallons of the most valuable natural resource in the world. (sidebar: if you don't agree that economic growth makes a superior culture, try freedom, or democratic principles, or humanity to man.) Israel, with the economic abilities that freedom and individual rights, grew into a world powerhouse in a matter of decades. No Islamic/Arabic state has been so successful since -- well, you'd have to go back aways. Like a millienia or so. For the shame-based society, to have another culture so thoroughly thrash them is not only a silly matter of pride, but is brutally shameful. It's unacceptable to their belief system. That's why Arabs could believe so uniformly that bin Laden had nothing to do with 9/11 and that the entire thing is an Israeli plot. Nobody must know it was us; it was a shameful thing. Our culture cannot go wrong. And so, for the Palestinians, it is not so bad simply to be occupied, but to be occupied by the Israelis -- another culture, demonstrating its superiority to ours -- that is downright unacceptable. Unfortunately, being right next door to a separate yet incredibly superior culture is also an unacceptable humiliation. Now here's a compelling thought. The last time the US was forced to deal with a shame-based society was... the Japanese. In the 20s and 30s they believed that their culture was superior, that their religion was the favored one, etc. They quit believing that when the superior culture demonstrated its superiority in a very, um, compelling way, something they couldn't fail to notice. But I can't end on that thought. The only thing more powerful than the A-bomb, friends, is western culture. And with communications technology, we can now export that culture from underneath. Its economic force cannot be denied, and the productivity gains that it creates will inevitably be bigger than oil. But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.