[Xugumad]

Originally posted by dhamsaic

What does conceding land to the Palestinians get for Israel?

Peace. It is fairly likely that the majority of Palestinians will not support any further attacks once their major aim of restoring their homeland has been reached. I explained that reasoning above, and why/how it would most likely be enforced by the Palestinians themselves.

Right now, a land-for-peace deal is the only hope for the Middle East. I am very, very keen to hear any alternatives.

Is it not true that if Israel gives up the West Bank, Gaza Strip and Golan Heights, it shows that it can be bullied by suicide bombers?

it's time to drop the macho posturing. Nobody in Britain or Northern Ireland believes that Britain gave in to the IRA bombers, yet agreements have been reached there, and comparative peace and tranquility (relatively speaking) have come to Eire. Yet for decades people yelled that we mustn't give in to the IRA bullies; strangely enough, co-operation was reached, and trust was built. Don't forget - like the Palestinian radicals, like Hamas, the extremist Northern Irish are a *small minority*. The silent majority will support whatever they consider to be their main aim - in NIreland the majority of Catholics doesn't support violence; in Palestine, if there was such a country, the majority wouldn't support violence either: they have seen what the last 35 years brought them, and they wouldn't risk it again. Don't underestimate the Palestinians - the western media may portray them at times as bloodthirsty savage towelheads, but that impression is wrong.

What is to stop the extremist Palestinians from continuing suicide bombing to get even more (such as the removal of Israel)?

It's interesting to see how suicide bombers work: there are two general types, the first being the young susceptible men who are put under immense pressure by extremists, set into a stage of semi-religious fanaticism, indoctrinated to hate and destroy, and then sent to kill. The second, currently more common type, are normal individuals who are experiencing enormous psychological stress due to their environmental hazards, pressure, and directed hatreds. The fanatic radicals usually belong to the first group, the second - much more spontaneous type - is a reasonably recent phenomenon. People are cracking under stress, fear, hatred, and anger.

If the Palestinians were given that what they believe belongs to them rightfully, the second group would be eliminated almost overnight. During Rabin's time, the second group was practically non-existent. There were still occasional fanatics belonging to the first group, but the rate at which incidents occurred was significantly lower; the second group that has grabbed so much attention is a fairly recent phenomenon, started as part of the second intifada, (cf. tw's postings regarding the Temple Mount and Sharon)

I know you say that other Palestinians will fight them - er, in theory, anyway. Hopefully, anyway. Logically, anyway.

Psychologically and historically speaking, I believe to have evidence on my side, as outlined above and in my previous posting. Again, I would be very happy to be given ANY INDICATION WHATSOEVER that this is incorrect; it's easy to doubt and claim that 'XYZ wouldn't happen', but can we get any indication for that whatsoever?

Palestinians (or roughly 80% of them, anyway) have shown that they don't support logical tactics or maneuvers - they support the killing of innocent civilians with human bombs.

You are assuming that you know exactly what the average Palestinian is thinking. How do you know that? Have you spoken to any non-radical Palestinians lately? Unfortunately, I have: one of them is a local student at my University, and he came to discuss the terrorist actions against the US at an University debate. I got chatting to him, and realized that the vast majority of Palestinians want exactly TWO things:

1. A non-occupied country, a nation, a home land. They believe Israel is illegally and against US conventions occupying the West Bank. Whether or not they are right in that is debatable; it isn't debatable that this is the main thrust of their desires.

2. Peace, no gunfire at night, no tanks flattening houses, no travel controls, no daily friskings, no Israeli children kicking at their old and weak, relative security. Not even prosperity .. just a place to call home, a country where they can live in peace.

What to do now? If Israel gives in, what is to stop the Palestinian extremists from demanding (and working toward) more?

Local, regional, and international pressure? Signed border contracts? The Arab League's acceptance of Israel's border, and the threat of being tortured by your friendly Palestinian brothers so you won't fuck up again, risking having Israeli tanks flattening the country you shed so much blood for over the last 35+ years? The fact that 80%+ of Palestinians don't give a flying fuck about anything apart from wanting a place to live, a roof over their heads, and no harassement from the Israelis?

I am happy to give the Northern Irish example again. People were yelling how once the Catholics were given representation and rights and things, they would immediately start plotting to overthrow the British government in NIreland, and attempt immediate unification with the Republic of Ireland. Did that happen? Fuck no. People are entirely too happy to be able to go out of their houses without getting shot because they happen to be Protestant or Catholic. The vast majority of the Palestinians will be too busy to rebuild their country and try to make a living to care about anything. The few radicals that will undoubtedly remain will be found and killed, by the Palestinian authorities, by the Mossad, by US spies, by whoever wants peace in the region. Frighteningly enough, that's the vast majority of people there, despite what you may thing. The major instigators of the 6-Day War and the Yom Kippur wars, Egypt, Syria, and Jordan... well, you'd be shocked at how desperate they are for relative peace in the Middle East.

However, I am happy to be enlightened to the opposite. If a land-for-peace deal seems to be too fraught with danger that the radicals will get greedy and start risking everybody's lives and their incredible achievements over some tiny strips of land, what's the alternative? Do tell.

X.