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Originally Posted by Undertoad
However, I will always refuse to play any sort of "Ooh, I told you so" game with you because:
A) It's uncivil; ...
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Appreciate why UT might be touchy about games of "I told you so". He parroted the George Jr party line even about aluminum tubes. But this is not a game of "I told you so". This is a discussion about using facts verses ideologoly and political rhetoric (ie how to solve the Iraq mess). Posted a year ago were statements that would become true because they were based upon fundamental principles and historical experience. Principles that George Jr and his neocon supporters denied back then and today.
For example, one blunt, basic, fundamental, irrefutible concept is the smoking gun. Going to war without a smoking gun is wrong and simply stupid. Yet neocons who have perverted 40 years of American foreign policy decided to unitlaterally attack any nation that might, sometime, maybe, in the future, become a threat. The concept is called pre-emption. It is dangerous. It is wrong as proven by history. It is wrong as proven in Iraq.
Again, there is no "I told you so". Accurately predicted by first learning lessons of history is what would happen in Iraq. So much in Iraq is exactly what we should have learned from VietNam.
Returning to the original sentence. I simply demonstrated what happens when one first learns history. These posts were about 1 year ago. Please feel free to demonstrate any positive progress since then in either Iraq or Afghanistan. But please show me, UT, where things got better one year later. Iraq continues to slowly worsen as predicted. Number of insurgents have doubled. Where is a solution? Where is the exit strategy? Where is all this international support? As I predicted, based upon both knowledge and previous experience, we now stew in our own juices. Obvious even one year ago because we attacked without a smoking gun.
Kudos to UT for providing that study from the Center for Strategic and International Studies. It does what the current administration would not do - because Clinton would do it. The study defines metrics for nation building. Those opposed to nation building must ignore or now fear metrics. Why fear? Because things continue to deteriorate in Iraq as they did one year ago. So instead we deny the numbers. In part because the administration more promotes and therefore believes their own rhetoric.
But again, I can understand how UT is touchy about anything that might be construed as "I told you so". UT believed a lying president rather than conclusions from three national advanced physics labs. Those labs said alumunim tubes were not appropriate for creating weapons grade uranium. Too many did what UT did. Believe a lying politician rather than technical facts. Another lesson here: give credence to the experts and always doubt the politicians. Especially doubt extremists politicians - both left and right wing. Which returns us to today - neocon vulcans still lie about Iraq.
Why will lookout123 and myself not agree? He is desperately seeking reasons to justify missile attacks on civilians. He advocates the policies (lies) of a mental midget president. He therefore has a different perspective. He must ignore why soldiers abandoned vital equipment on Baghdad streets. He must justify missile attacks on civilians. Streets that are suppose to be so safe. He does as UT did with the aluminum tubes. He blindly believes the lying politicians of this George Jr administration. What happens when ideology rather than pragmatism makes decisions.
Yes, the attacks might be a result of cowboy helicopter pilots. However problems don't end there. Same reason why Abu Ghraid was created. George Jr's people cannot get what their agenda predicts. Therefore we must fix problems with more force. They Gitmoized Iraqi prisons. Decision to do so came from within this administration. Same administartion that must now cover up the outing of a CIA agent. Clearly the *correct* information was not being taken from prisoners. Therefore torture, as routinely performed in Guantanamo, was justified. After all, the George Jr administration could not be wrong.
History teaches this. When the top people are driven by ideology and agenda rather than by fundamental principles and real world facts - then hell is justified. It was but another lesson from Vietnam. It was the driving force behind Nazi mentality. It is why we are now in Iraq and why we make no effort to capture bin Laden.
Until we address the problem - until we remove George Jr and his Vulcan extremists - then Iraq will continue to worsen. What America is doing in Iraq now is misguided. It may be too late for America alone to correct the George Jr mistakes. We must concede to obtain international help. Things will only worsen with a mental midget and extremist as president. A missile attack on civilians only because they were nearby a burning Bradley is but another symptom of why Americans are slowly becoming Ugly Americans. Ugly even among the Kurdish. That excellent study discovered by UT notes even in Kurdish sections, American popularity is waning. Why? President George Jr is the problem.
Nation building is required in Iraq. AND we must send at least one single battalion to capture bin Laden. Under George Jr, neither will happen. Instead under George Jr, we will go to war against Iran. Please explain how more wars will solve anything? We need a president who can acutally make his own decisions - about when to get up from a chair in FL to ask critically important questions. Instead some even justify missile attacks on Iraq civilians as if they were Palestinians. How much more extremist or misguided can we become? We would justify anything to support the mental midget president?
Its not about "I told you so". Its about learning the lessons of history. I rather expect some still deny the smoking gun concept. Some still refuse to learn from Vietnam. They advocate pre-emption - and justify missile attacks on civilians.